Paper Cartridges in Single Shot Pistol?

[zaboomafoozarg]

I recently asked about this on the actual paper cartridges thread, where I was told that it wouldn't work and is intended for revolvers.

Not to disregard the information given me there, I can't help but ask again, 'cause since having read that, I could have sworn I read in at least three different places where people mention using paper cartridges in muzzleloader pistols and rifles and shotguns.

So it left me a bit confused. I guess the only option is to ask again and hope for some more clarifying answers!

Is it possible, then, to load paper cartridges into a single shot pistol? It sure would be convenient!

 

[nalioth]

I believe the paper and usage is different.

You use sturdy paper, load your ball in to it, and then your charge. Make several.

When you get to the range, you open the package and pour the contents into your smoke pole.

Works for any muzzle loader (not just pistols).

"course, I may be misremembering something I saw somewhere else. .

 

[BHP FAN]

Works just fine.You can make different kinds,too. Buck and ball works well from my .69 caliber flintlock pistol. Top cigarette papers work the best, as they are tougher than Zig Zags.

 

[zaboomafoozarg]

So BHP fan how do you do it? Bear in mind you're talking to a complete ignoramus here. What does "buck" and ball mean? Do you do as nalioth said and just tear open the cartridge and dump the contents in, minus the paper? or can you ram the whole thing down?

Also, is it just the powder then the ball? Or does it need a wad in between or after or anything?

Thanks a lot

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi zaboomafoozarg,


While I have not tried it in a Single Shot Pistol, I see no reason why a Paper Cartridge left-whole, would not work just fine...

IF...one use thin Paper, such as a Roll-yer-Own Cigarette Paper, and, have the diameter of the Cartridge on the Breech-end, be substantially narrower that the Bore, and, as few layers of Paper as possible...whether a small trimmed twisted and glued end, or, a folded paper end.


Thus allowing the Paper closest to the Breech to tear open when the Cartridge is compressed with the Ram Rod.


If the Cartridge has a folded bottom, then, insert in such a way as for only one layer of paper, since how it will tear is not always certain, so the part away from the folds, should be closest to the opening from the Frizzen Pan or Percussion Cap Drum or Nipple.

You might get a very slight delay, and or a weak ignition, if the Spark has to go through the Paper so, the idea is, for the Cartridge to be made in such a way, and, inserted in such a way, as for the Paper to tear open where the Spark can reach the then exposed Powder most directly.


If finding disappointment in trying this, of course, you can always continue to make tidy, good looking, easy to pile into a small Tin or Box, of Paper Cartridges, with Paper type being less critical, which you would tear open for Loading, pouring the Powder into the Barrel, followed by the Grease Wafer/Wad/Pill if you use them, then the crumpled Paper, followed by the Ball or Bullet or patched Ball or Bullet.


So...either way, you should be able to have the fun and convenience of Paper Cartridges I'd think.

 

[TheRodDoc]

It depends on the muzzle loader. If it needs a cloth patch then there is no reason to use a paper cartridge. For there won't be a patch on the bullet. You can't count the paper for a patch for it will just scrape off of the ball or bullet when pushing it into the muzzle.

Muzzle loader guns made for a paper patched bullet have a false muzzle that came with the gun to start the paper and bullet square and without tearing the paper off the bullet.

If you are not using any kind of patch then it would work but I still see no reason to use a paper cartridge for it is as easy and or as fast to use a powder flask when loading from a muzzle.

Plus on a muzzle loader you can't easily see if there is paper still left in the breach after firing. It could be still smoldering when the next powder charge is put in. Boom. And also the fact that the paper hinders the ignition.

 

[arcticap]

I agree.
The type of paper used for paper patching balls and for making musket cartridges is most often thick typing or photocopying paper which is not conducive for ignition without first tearing open the cartridge and dumping in the powder.

Also, before you specifically asked regarding the Traditions Kentucky pistol which has a drum ignition and which could impair the ignition of thick paper cartridges if they're loaded intact.
Whereas paper cartridges work better in revolvers because they have more direct ignition, the balls aren't patched, the paper used is much thinner and can be easily pierced with a nipple pick if necessary. Plus the thinner paper can also be treated with chemicals to enhance combustion.
Neither hangfires or poor accuracy are desirable results to experience when shooting a single shot pistol.

 

[BHP FAN]

Buck and ball is double wrapped with cigarette paper,which is already nitrated [so the cigarette doesn't go out] and combusts more or less completely.I've checked for this in my Sharps,and the paper is always completely gone,whether combusted,or merely blown away,I couldn't say,but it's not there.Sensible folks would wipe the bore between shots,as insurance.The Sharps is a beech loader,and cuts the paper tail off the cartridge with an integral paper cutter built into the sliding breech block. With the smooth bore pistol,I cut the paper tail off with scissors,before dropping the cartridge down the barrel. Buck and ball is loaded with a card wad, a large ball,almost bore size [I use a .50 in a gun described as a ''.69'', but which is actually closer to .62] then a tablespoon of Field eight shot,or a half a hand full of .31 round ball,or just nine .36 ball,followed by a fiber wad,then powder.Again, cut or bite the tail off the cartridge before dropping it down the bore.In a Kentucky pistol,which is rifled,I'd just go ahead and use an appropriate sized patched round ball.

 

[BHP FAN]

Note: instructions for loading shot into a revolver are printed on the inside of Wonder Wads packaging.At least it was the last time I bought some.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

For a smooth bore pistol, I suppose it is ok. For a rifled barrel pistol, a paper cartridge that is jammed intact down the bore, just doesn't make sense. It wouldn't seal the bore as it should. In a cap and ball revolver, the chamber is smooth and the lip of the chamber should cut a ring anyway. (Or so I would think)

For fine target shooting, I wouldn't be shooting any combination that could leave inconsistent residue in the breech. especially charred paper flecks that could potentially block the flash channel. In a revvolver, several shots are fired before reloading and five shots are on the paper (hopefully), before any possibility that the residue could affect accuracy. Not so with the single shot muzzleloader.

 

[BHP FAN]

Paper cartridges worked in the civil war,even with rifled muskets.The problem with the Dixie Kentucky will be that there isn't a minie ball made for it,and it has nice deep rifleing, not ideal [as zimmerstutzen pointed out] for the paper cartridge.an appropiate sized ball and patch combination should give some pretty fine accuracy,though.

 

[zaboomafoozarg]

Is this something with just the traditions kentucky, or all rifled-barreled single shot pistols?

BHP Fan, when you say "an appropriate sized ball and patch combination," what does the "patch" mean and also, I take it you're referring to normal loading technique (pour powder > insert ball?)

One way or another I'm going to end up with a single shot muzzleloader pistol though, either a kentucky or lyman, so it's best to know what will and wont work! So, Thanks everybody

 

[BHP FAN]

A .490 round ball,and a patch about the thickness of a pocket handkerchief should work for a .50 cal. For a ''.45'' I find a patched .440 round ball works pretty darn well.Bedsheets will give you about a lifetime supply of paches.Make sure they were not handed down through several generations of the wife's family, first.

 

[zaboomafoozarg]

But the purpose of a patch is....? and how do you use it? I swear there ought to be a guide to these kinda terms for us know-nothings new to the forum and BP in general.

I appreciate the patience

 

[BHP FAN]

I wish I could draw you a picture.First,pour a sixty gr. charge of powder,measured by volume,not weight down the barrel. If you cut your patch as a 1/18'' circle,and place it over the barrel,you should have it centered on the bore.Take your finger and poke down in the middle,and there should be a dent,dead center.Place the patch ,lubed with a little Crisco [unsalted] or Bore Butter, over the bore drop the ball on top of your dent.use a short starter or length of dowel to ''start'' the ball down the barrel.Use your ram rod to push the patched ball all the way to the bottom,firmly.Push once more to ''seat'' the ball.Air gaps can cause serious damage to the gun,or user.Cap or prime the gun.Fire the gun.Repeat until grin fades.

 

[zaboomafoozarg]

Aha! Brilliant, thanks so much.

Just one more question....


what if the grin never fades!?

 

[nalioth]

what if the grin never fades!?

. . . you'll run out of supplies eventually . . .

 

[Nicodemus38]

actually if you made a paper cartridge of correct paper, ie ciggarette paper, or just used ONE layer of nitrated paper around powder and projectile itwould work fine in a muzzleloading pistol of any type provided the following is followed:

if used in a flintlock, stick a wire vent pick in through the vent to prick the paper cartridge open to allow proper flow of powder into the vent channel.

if used in a percussion pistol, make sure you use caps that develop the most possible flame and flash when they ignite.

also, if you put a paper cartridge into a rifled barrel, it wold TEAR the cartridge apart if you assume you use the proper diameter bullet. ie, if you have a .50 cal rifle that uses a .495 diameter projectile, a single layer of cigarrette paper would more then be thick enough to be ripped to shreds in the barrel.
the cartridge paper was used as wadding in smooth bore and RIFLED weapons.

 

[arcticap]

Here's a PDF copy of the Lyman owner's manual which contains the loading procedure for "HOW TO LOAD ...The Patched Roundball" on pages 7 & 8 plus more useful info.:

http://stevespages.com/pdf/lyman_blackpowder.pdf

 

[zaboomafoozarg]

So Nicodemus, are you saying with the tearing of the cartridge apart by the rifled barrel... it wouldnt work? Or it WOULD? would it accomplish what people say needs to happen: for the powder to be exposed to be ignited?

Thanks Arcticap I will take a look!

 

[BHP FAN]

Depending on ball diameter and bore size.Keep in mind the paper cartridges for rifled muskets were somewhat undersized you simply bit off the tail of the cartridge poured a little powder down the bore and followed it with the rest of the whole cartridge.no tearing up anything,no wadding.This was accomplished by using a new projectile...the Minie ''ball''.Only it wasn't a ball,it was the ancestor to a ''modern'' hollow based bullet.The idea was kind of like a pellet gun projectile,the relatively thin ''skirt'' expanded to grip the rifling,in essence ''bumping up'' to fit the bore.

 

[BHP FAN]

Nikodemus's idea of useing the paper as wadding would work well in a caliber in which no Minie was available. really,you can make a paper cartridge for almost any kind of black powder gun.I used to make a kind of ''shot sabot'' for my .45 Jukar Kentucky useing the cardboard roll at the bottom of a hanger with four buck shot in the cardboard roll.Pour in powder, just as you normally would followed by your cardboard buck shot roll.don't use it in dry grass,or on hot days,though. I never set any fires,but I DID find one of my sabots that was pretty well scorched.