Paper-patched bullets?

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I'm interested in paper-patching bullets, specifically for the .44M. I want to do this for two reasons:

1. This may allow me to utilize common .430 diameter cast bullets. My Winchester 1892 (and nearly all popular .44M firearms today) requires .432 diameter bullets to seal the bore completely (or maybe it's the throat; can't remember). Why the market is flooded with .430 diameter bullets is a real head-scratcher to me.

2. This will also allow me to use soft bullets at high-velocity without barrel leading. This will make an excellent deer load, with better terminal performance than the hard-cast flat-noses I use now, as the bullet will actually expand on impact. I don't want to use jacketed bullets, for various reasons.

Does anybody have any links to resources that could help me? And, off-hand, does anyone know if it's true that you can do it with masking tape? That would be awesome.
 
To do this right, you'll need the bullet to be at bore diameter, not groove diameter. You then build up the bullet's diameter with paper until you have a nice snug fit in the cylinder throat. The bullet rides on top of the rifling and the paper seals the grooves.

Therefore, .430" bullets are out of the question because you will need to wrap the bullet with at least two layers of paper. That would turn a .430" slug into .436" or thereabouts... too big.

You should have a custom mold made or a swaging die. If you want a book, get The Paper Jacket by Paul Mathews.
 
Therefore, .430" bullets are out of the question because you will need to wrap the bullet with at least two layers of paper. That would turn a .430" slug into .436" or thereabouts... too big.
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That thought had occurred to me. I'm thinking that bullets intended for the .44-40 might work (.425-.427)
 
Two wraps of Eaton#9 onionskin = 2 x 2 x 0.002" = 0.008" (~8-10 thousandths when all the dust settles.

- You will likely need to use pure lead to get good seal/paper action. 0.430" total will then work
- You will need a 0.420-0.422 Dia bullet core to wrap to get that final diameter
 
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You will be turning your lever gun into a single shot because paper patched bullet aint goinna feed good in a tube.
 
That thought had occurred to me. I'm thinking that bullets intended for the .44-40 might work (.425-.427)
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That size is still too big. According to Mathews, if the bullet is larger or smaller than bore diameter it won't reach its accuracy potential. Since the grooves are usually .010" deep, you'll need a .410" or so bullet.

You should really measure your bore and groove diameters and do a chambercast to determine the diameter, length, and profile of your freebore/throat.
 
You can still use .430 soft cast bullets. Wrap them, let the patch dry and harden, then very lightly lube them with liquid alox, a wax lube, or a Teflon spray and run them through a Lee push through bullet sizer at .430. No problem.
 
1. This may allow me to utilize common .430 diameter cast bullets. My Winchester 1892 (and nearly all popular .44M firearms today) requires .432 diameter bullets to seal the bore completely (or maybe it's the throat; can't remember).
Click to expand...

If you have a 44 mag that has a .432 bore, you should be sending it back, or have it re-barreled. Nominal diameter should be .429.

Most paper patched boolits are for rifles. There's special molds made to produce boolits that are undersize per caliber, and smooth sided, no grease grooves. You might be able to get a specialty mold maker do a PP mold for 44 mag, you'd be able to tell them what nose type you want. NOE,(Night Owl Enterprises), does that, as well as some others.
 
Grease groove bullets patch up just fine. If they end up too big for your rifle, run them through a a sizer like Elkins45 mentioned. Smooth sided bullets work okay also. Even tapered bullets can be made to work.

Read some of the threads by guys who have patched and sift through the information. Some of it will work for you, some won't. I PP for several calibers but mine are all single shots. I try to keep it as simple as possible, whehter for the 45 or the 50 calibers. (My next go round with PP will be for my 405 WCF.)

AS for PP feeding from a tubed magazine, or any magazine, the Mauser 71/84 used PP bullets and it seemed to do fine.
 
If you have a 44 mag that has a .432 bore, you should be sending it back, or have it re-barreled. Nominal diameter should be .429.
Click to expand...

Every .44M lever action in production, as well as many revolvers, including Ruger's, are known to have this issue. They work fine with .429 jacketed bullets, but produce poor groups and leading with anything other than .432 cast bullets.
 
You can still use .430 soft cast bullets. Wrap them, let the patch dry and harden, then very lightly lube them with liquid alox, a wax lube, or a Teflon spray and run them through a Lee push through bullet sizer at .430. NO PROBLEM
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Big problem. MEHavey states that you need 2 layers of .002 thick paper to properly patch a bullet. THAT means, you WOULD have to to size/swage/squeeze that bullet down .008 thousandths to arrive at .430 again. That's WAY too much of a size reduction, you'd damage the form of the bullet badly, the point would change shape as well as the base bulging.

Every .44M lever action in production, as well as many revolvers, including Ruger's, are known to have this issue. They work fine with .429 jacketed bullets, but produce poor groups and leading with anything other than .432 cast bullets.
Click to expand...

So YOU say , that's not what I hear, and it's NOT how it's supposed to be. You contradict yourself. A .432 bore would not shoot jacketed bullets worth a damn either. I assume you slugged those over sized bores, not just measured with a 20 dollar caliper?¿
 
So YOU say , that's not what I hear, and it's NOT how it's supposed to be. You contradict yourself. A .432 bore would not shoot jacketed bullets worth a damn either. I assume you slugged those over sized bores, not just measured with a 20 dollar caliper?
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The "overbore .44" problem is common knowledge.
 
Big problem. MEHavey states that you need 2 layers of .002 thick paper to properly patch a bullet. THAT means, you WOULD have to to size/swage/squeeze that bullet down .008 thousandths to arrive at .430 again. That's WAY too much of a size reduction, you'd damage the form of the bullet badly, the point would change shape as well as the base bulging.
Click to expand...

Have you done it? I have. The paper compresses a good bit and it doesn't deform the bullet significantly. Accuracy has been very good in my experience.

If you have a sizing die why don't you wrap a bullet, run it through a die, then unwrap it to measure and examine it. I suspect you might be surprised.

I made a special .300 mold so I could patch it up to .308. I have also wrapped a .308 bullet sized it back down. The minor difference wasn't worth the effort of making the special mold.

The PP guys over at the Cast Boolets forum routinely talk about patching and sizing full diameter bullets with success.
 
I have discovered with the Sharps (which runs 600gr pure lead) that excessive sizing forces associated w/ such reductions distort the bullet nose significantly.

I recommend the smaller diameter to start.
 
Sizing a bullet more than .002" tends to negatively affect accuracy. It is better to run a bore riding bullet and make up the difference with paper. The bullet will be happier.
 
If the bullet nose is being deformed when sizing or seating, you need a better nose punch.

I have sized bullets from.460 to .430 and not had problems. You have to use the proper dies and nose punches.
 
I won't argue that a correct nose punch helps. But with pure lead, it actually pre-obturates :what: the front portion of the bullet body when that much sizing is involved.

Why pure lead then? Because it performs wonderfully in the bullet/patch/barrel system.
 
With the Lee dies, you are not deforming the nose as you are pushing it through the die from the flat base with a flat punch.

The guy was right, You CAN size those PAPER PATCHED bullets down. I've done it too. It works.

BTW, I did this with a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun. I also did it about 15yrs ago with a 1895 that had the microgroove rifling. And, they worked through the magazine flawlessly.

The key is as he said. You HAVE to lubricate the wrapped bullet with something like Lee liquid alox.

You have to read the posts one word at a time and assimilate the whole message or you miss something IMPORTANT......
 
You have to read the posts one word at a time and assimilate the whole message or you miss something IMPORTANT......
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So I have done in reading through the posts.

The problem is that I have shrink-wrapped the paper, tight. I have tried multiple papers. The final Eaton#9 is strong 25% cotton. The projo/paper is lubricated--first with BreakFree after they come out of the drying oven, and again with a mix of white lithium/motor-mica. The top punch is shaped to the Ballard RNFP profile.... (You get the picture)

But irrespective of all the good stuff above, but when you press too hard on a cylinder of metallic modeling clay you get squashed bullet.

postscript: Since 1981 on this rifle I've tried multiple bullet styles (classic grease-groove to slick-sided), multiple bullet weights (350-600gr), multiple hardness levels (linotype to annealed pure lead), multiple diameters (under-and-over groove diameter), multiple papers (tracing paper-to-cigarette papers to 100% cotton rag to $1 bills(!), multiple lubricants, hi-pressure axle greases, Beeswax, 50/50, Crisco, STP, various lanolin/beargrease combos, 90WT gear lubes, lithium/mica, multiple sizing combinations... and oh yeah, multiple powder combinations. I eventually filled two hard-bound green ledgers with records of all the trials & tribulations, but finally got it right about ten years ago. ;)

.
 
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Why the market is flooded with .430 diameter bullets is a real head-scratcher to me.
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I don't understand this either. Commercial 30-30 is typically .309, but most Marlin take .311 or .312. Why don't they size .312 and let us size to what we want? They sell a lot of CB that don't perform very well and discourage those beginning to shoot CB.
 
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