Paper-patched bullets?
- Thread starter A strange person
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snuffy
Member
It amazes me what some people say without really thinking about what happens to bullets that are getting sized. If you size a lube groove bullet more that .004, the lube grooves swage closed! The lead has to go somewhere, it will flow to the path of least resistance. The lube grooves are more easily collapsed than making the nose or base longer.
For those that say nothing bad happens to a smooth sided bullet, like a paper patched bullet, when it is sized down .008, measure the OAL of the bullet before and after sizing. It HAS to be longer, the lead has to go somewhere!
No I have not. But I'm going to, if for no other reason than I'm curious. And to prove it to my self that what I think will happen, actually happens. I'll buy some rag content paper on a shopping trip today. I have a couple of bullets I'd like to try it on.
For those that say nothing bad happens to a smooth sided bullet, like a paper patched bullet, when it is sized down .008, measure the OAL of the bullet before and after sizing. It HAS to be longer, the lead has to go somewhere!
No I have not. But I'm going to, if for no other reason than I'm curious. And to prove it to my self that what I think will happen, actually happens. I'll buy some rag content paper on a shopping trip today. I have a couple of bullets I'd like to try it on.
A strange person
Member
They do it just to irritate us.
Snuffy,
Don't swage the grooved bullet naked. Fill the grooves with grease and they stay put. As I said, I swaged a 46 caliber Collar Button bullet down to 43 caliber to use in a 44 Colt revolver. I believe I used two or three different dies to do this but I had not yet acquired a mold for the 44 Colt.
Other reloaders I know have done similar things but not quite as drastic. Like swaging a 45 rifle bullet down to use in the 45 long Colt, or a 44 caliber bullet down to use in an 11mm Mauser.
Don't swage the grooved bullet naked. Fill the grooves with grease and they stay put. As I said, I swaged a 46 caliber Collar Button bullet down to 43 caliber to use in a 44 Colt revolver. I believe I used two or three different dies to do this but I had not yet acquired a mold for the 44 Colt.
Other reloaders I know have done similar things but not quite as drastic. Like swaging a 45 rifle bullet down to use in the 45 long Colt, or a 44 caliber bullet down to use in an 11mm Mauser.
snuffy
Member
Yeah, I know that trick. BUT if you do that, and the lube grooves don't close up, then the bullet HAS to elongate when it's diameter is decreased. The lead has to go somewhere, squeezing it doesn't make it disappear. If you're pushing it from behind as in the lee sizer or star, then the nose grows. If you're pushing on the nose, as in lyman and RCBS sizers, then the nose below the top punch fattens out, as well as the base lengthening.
It's simple to prove, measure the length before and after, and the ogive in front of the front driving band.
Now, I gotta go cast some pure lead boolits to test those theories about paper patching a full diameter boolit, sizing it down to bore size, then unwrapping them to see if they swaged down.
Elkins45
Member
That's absolutely true. They haven't repealed the Law of Conservation of Matter.
I think a lot of what disappears is space between the fibers in the paper, and the airspace between the layers of wrap.
Mind you, I never declared the bullet doesn't change size at all, I just said it doesn't lose the entire .008. I'm pretty sure it looses a little.
A strange person
Member
Given how complicated everyone is making it, I think I will wait until I have studied some literature on the subject before I even think of starting.
snuffy
Member
Well, the jury is in! Every claim I made turned out to be correct.
Here's the bullet in question;
http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/bullet-molds/30-caliber-rifle/lee-dc-mold-c309-170-f-
I cast these out of nearly pure lead with around ½% tin. So that the bullet could deform or conform while being sized. As cast they were .309 and weighed 178.5 bare.
I had to heat the lead very hot, I did not take it's temp, but estimate it was running 850 degrees. I also had to preheat the mold each time to get it to cast decent boolits. Then to top it all off, I had to pressure cast them using a Lyman ladle which allows you to mate the spout with the sprue plate to allow the lead in the ladle to exert pressure on the bullet while it's being formed. After pouring 50 boolits, I got 25 that were well filled out.
I got some writing paper,(tablet), at the GS. They didn't have anything with rag or linen content, so I got it. After soaking the strips in water for a ½ hour, I wrapped 6 boolits, set them out to dry and went to bed.
They were dry this morning so I rolled each one in some Lee Liquid Allox. I wanted to do small steps to reduce the . 319 diameter they ended up at after wrapping. I have the following for 30 cal sizers. A .313 Lyman, a .311 lee, and a .308 Lyman. So in succession I sized them down. I also measured OAL of each boolit befroe and after sizing. AND since this style boolit is also a bore rider, the straight section of the nose was also micked.
Sized dia paper patched----------length B-A----nose dia.---------size after PP rem
1. .308----------------------------.952 to .959--- .304--------------.301
2. .3085---------------------------.952 to .964----.304-------------.301
3. .308----------------------------.952 to .965-----.303------------.301
I could keep on for all six, but the numbers were all very close. The nose section was clearly deformed, the lube grooves were closed, half what they were. This boolit simply would not work if it were loaded. The bore riding nose would have to engrave it's full length upon chambering.
If loaded in a single shot where you could push the loaded round in, it maybe would work. Also, a thin layer of boolit lube should be on the nose, or it would lead the bore if left bare.
There's a high degree of fiddle factor involved with doing paper patched bullets. Too much fiddling around for me to fool with. BUT I'm just curious enough to try it using another, different, bullet style. One without that long bore rider. Since I got the paper, I might give it a try, that's the beauty of being retired!
Here's the bullet in question;
http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/bullet-molds/30-caliber-rifle/lee-dc-mold-c309-170-f-
I cast these out of nearly pure lead with around ½% tin. So that the bullet could deform or conform while being sized. As cast they were .309 and weighed 178.5 bare.
I had to heat the lead very hot, I did not take it's temp, but estimate it was running 850 degrees. I also had to preheat the mold each time to get it to cast decent boolits. Then to top it all off, I had to pressure cast them using a Lyman ladle which allows you to mate the spout with the sprue plate to allow the lead in the ladle to exert pressure on the bullet while it's being formed. After pouring 50 boolits, I got 25 that were well filled out.
I got some writing paper,(tablet), at the GS. They didn't have anything with rag or linen content, so I got it. After soaking the strips in water for a ½ hour, I wrapped 6 boolits, set them out to dry and went to bed.
They were dry this morning so I rolled each one in some Lee Liquid Allox. I wanted to do small steps to reduce the . 319 diameter they ended up at after wrapping. I have the following for 30 cal sizers. A .313 Lyman, a .311 lee, and a .308 Lyman. So in succession I sized them down. I also measured OAL of each boolit befroe and after sizing. AND since this style boolit is also a bore rider, the straight section of the nose was also micked.
Sized dia paper patched----------length B-A----nose dia.---------size after PP rem
1. .308----------------------------.952 to .959--- .304--------------.301
2. .3085---------------------------.952 to .964----.304-------------.301
3. .308----------------------------.952 to .965-----.303------------.301
I could keep on for all six, but the numbers were all very close. The nose section was clearly deformed, the lube grooves were closed, half what they were. This boolit simply would not work if it were loaded. The bore riding nose would have to engrave it's full length upon chambering.
If loaded in a single shot where you could push the loaded round in, it maybe would work. Also, a thin layer of boolit lube should be on the nose, or it would lead the bore if left bare.
There's a high degree of fiddle factor involved with doing paper patched bullets. Too much fiddling around for me to fool with. BUT I'm just curious enough to try it using another, different, bullet style. One without that long bore rider. Since I got the paper, I might give it a try, that's the beauty of being retired!
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Ever notice how quickly cutting paper will dull a really sharp knife or good pair of scissors?
It takes the edge off in no time flat.
Honing a knife on paper or cardboard is also great for putting a final shaving sharp edge on a newly sharpened knife blade.
I got to wonder how abrasive a dry paper patched bullet is when driven down a barrel's sharp rifling at high velocity??
rc
It takes the edge off in no time flat.
Honing a knife on paper or cardboard is also great for putting a final shaving sharp edge on a newly sharpened knife blade.
I got to wonder how abrasive a dry paper patched bullet is when driven down a barrel's sharp rifling at high velocity??
rc
snuffy
Member
Good point RC!
People get mad when box cutters have to have their blades replaced daily because the cardboard has taken the edge off the cutter. It don't help any when they run into staples either!
Yes, my mom went ballistic when I was cutting paper with her sewing scissors. Same story with the barber shears she used to give me haircuts. Waddaya mean, you didn't have yer mom give you haircuts? Fortunately dad was very good at sharpening scissors, and other things as well.
People get mad when box cutters have to have their blades replaced daily because the cardboard has taken the edge off the cutter. It don't help any when they run into staples either!Yes, my mom went ballistic when I was cutting paper with her sewing scissors. Same story with the barber shears she used to give me haircuts. Waddaya mean, you didn't have yer mom give you haircuts?
Fortunately dad was very good at sharpening scissors, and other things as well.I'm sorry you had to do all that to prove the obvious.
I think the main problem with paper patching is people just don't understand the relationship of the round with the chamber, specifically between the bullet and the throat.
Paper is not copper. You can't molest it with a sizer die. It is only a gasket intended to come off the bullet once it leaves the muzzle, kinda like sabot.
I think the main problem with paper patching is people just don't understand the relationship of the round with the chamber, specifically between the bullet and the throat.
Paper is not copper. You can't molest it with a sizer die. It is only a gasket intended to come off the bullet once it leaves the muzzle, kinda like sabot.
rc,
I doubt you could shoot enough bullets to wear out a rifle barrel. Some of the long range boys use nothing but PP lead in their Sharps, Rolling Blocks and Trapdoors and they don't rebarrel very often. I have sent several thousand down the bore of my 1866 Trapdoor and haven't seen any problems.
Elkins45
Member
Snuffy:
I think it would be very interesting if you were to load up some of those bullets and try them out. You might be pleasantly surprised. The PP crowd on the Cast Boolets forum report good results from similar techniques.
Nonetheless, this is what I did to avoid the problem you describe: I started with a Lee 7mm mould then reamed it with a drill press (M-size bit IIRC) to give a .301 smooth shank but still retain the pointy 7mm nose.
It certainly shoots well enough to hunt with at 100 yards.
I should add that the two wrapped bullets were just done for the sake of the picture. I have since standardized a patch pattern that meets precisely. I used the drawing controls in Word to create a bunch of parallelograms of different lengths and then chose the one that just met but didn't overlap. I have also learned that the paper you choose makes a significant difference in accuracy. I clip off the tails before sizing and loading.
I think it would be very interesting if you were to load up some of those bullets and try them out. You might be pleasantly surprised. The PP crowd on the Cast Boolets forum report good results from similar techniques.
Nonetheless, this is what I did to avoid the problem you describe: I started with a Lee 7mm mould then reamed it with a drill press (M-size bit IIRC) to give a .301 smooth shank but still retain the pointy 7mm nose.
It certainly shoots well enough to hunt with at 100 yards.
I should add that the two wrapped bullets were just done for the sake of the picture. I have since standardized a patch pattern that meets precisely. I used the drawing controls in Word to create a bunch of parallelograms of different lengths and then chose the one that just met but didn't overlap. I have also learned that the paper you choose makes a significant difference in accuracy. I clip off the tails before sizing and loading.
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res45
Member
Mainly because the problem with some of the Marlins is the Microgroove bores,they take a larger dia. and somewhat harder cast bullet to fill and grip the shallow lands and grooves to impart the proper spin on the bullet. The smaller dia. .309 commercial cast bullet which generally work fine in 99% of the 30-30 rifles there shot in tend to skid on the Microgroove rifling. This is especially a problem with low pressure plinking loads and hard bullets that don't obturate.
A gas check cast bullets will also improve the accuracy in the Microgroove bores. It's just part of the learning process when dealing with the Marlins and cast bullets.
wgaynor
Member
Just started paper patching myself. So far, i've had good results. You do not want to use masking tape or anything that will keep the paper on the bullet as it exits the barrel. This will cause you to have poor accuracy.
What I do, is take my paper (tracing paper), cut it to size (remember it will stretch, so take it into account), dip it in a solution of water and dish soap to "stick the paper on while it's wet" and roll, roll, roll. As you roll the paper, it will stretch. The paper is amazingly strong, so don't treat it too gently or you won't be satisfied with your results.
Once they dry (only takes a few minutes), be sure you lube them. I smear some Alox on there, but some just use grease. Whatever is used, you want to make sure it will stay on and not just dry out.
All of this I learned over at the cast boolit forum.
What I do, is take my paper (tracing paper), cut it to size (remember it will stretch, so take it into account), dip it in a solution of water and dish soap to "stick the paper on while it's wet" and roll, roll, roll. As you roll the paper, it will stretch. The paper is amazingly strong, so don't treat it too gently or you won't be satisfied with your results.
Once they dry (only takes a few minutes), be sure you lube them. I smear some Alox on there, but some just use grease. Whatever is used, you want to make sure it will stay on and not just dry out.
All of this I learned over at the cast boolit forum.
snuffy
Member
Elkins, I'm sure those boolits would NOT chamber. The bore riding area of that long nose is .304-5 because the boolit was being sized so much, some of the lead ended up swaging/moving there. It wouldn't enter the throat in front of the chamber.
I did something similar to a lee 440 grain .501 mold for the 500 S&W. I needed a sabot slug that would measure .510. I sent for a reamer that would cut @ .509 thinking it would cast about .002 bigger than that. I ran the reamer down to the beginning of the nose. It took all the lube grooves out and worked great.
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