Park Rangers shoot puppy between the eyes,puppy lives!

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If he has bitemarks, good shoot. If he doesn't, pack up your things.

So, if I shoot a mugger do I have to allow him to sink his blade into my chest before it becomes a "good shoot"?

Ive noticed this many times in the past. Why is it that we hold shootings involving animals to a higher standard than we do shootings involving people.

Imagine this scenario: Man and girlfriend are fooling around at the beach. A ranger shows up and claims that the man charged him with a knife, and shoots him. The girlfriend says that her boyfriend didnt mean any harm. Does the ranger need to be injured for that to be a good shoot? Trade man with "lab mix" and you have the same story.
 
So, if I shoot a mugger do I have to allow him to sink his blade into my chest before it becomes a "good shoot"?
Only if your defense is that he was physically stabbing you at the time of the shooting
He was physically biting the ranger according to our account,"
Does the ranger need to be injured for that to be a good shoot? Trade man with "lab mix" and you have the same story.
No, you have to add that he was physically stabbing the officer at the time.

The ranger did not claim that the dog was charging, but that he was physically biting.

In retrospect
He would have to be pretty dumb to make that claim if he does not have verifiable eveidence such as bite marks.
It would be much easier to say that he was charging.

He said she said defense shifts burden of proof to the complainant
 
Imagine this scenario: Man and girlfriend are fooling around at the beach. A ranger shows up and claims that the man charged him with a knife, and shoots him. The girlfriend says that her boyfriend didnt mean any harm. Does the ranger need to be injured for that to be a good shoot? Trade man with "lab mix" and you have the same story.

No, but if we change a couple things we have the same story: Man and girlfriend are fooling around at the beach. A ranger shows up and claims that the man charged him with a knife, and shoots him. The girlfriend says that her boyfriend did nothing at all. Does the ranger need to be injured for that to be a good shoot?

I'd say yeah, he does. He certainly needs something now doesn't he? Otherwise we have his story, her story and a corpse. Or do we always automatically believe the LEO?

Now in THIS case the LEO says the mutt actually bit him. So by definition if it bit him there will be bite marks...and if there are no bite marks then he is a liar and thus his entire story is discredited.

Am I missing anything here?
 
Okay, let's all remember that we're talking about an incident based upon information published in a newspaper, for crying out loud.

Also, for those of you that aren't familiar with the area, Santa Cruz is on the accelerating downhill slope of the leftward tilt. It's a great place to visit on the weekends, and I spend a lot of time over there and in the surrounding area, but it can sometimes make SF seem like a staunch bastion of conservatism. :scrutiny:

Hey, I say that affectionately. :cool:

Now, I won't get involved in making judgmental comments based upon information written in a local newspaper article. :rolleyes:

I will, however, offer some comments based upon my personal experiences with dogs, and their owners. Also, before my current partner of many years became a cop with us, he was a K-9 handler for several years at another agency, and before that he was a member of the puppy police for several years. He and I have discussed many interesting experiences involving dogs, and shared more experiences with them while working together than I care to remember. I also grew up with dogs, and have a little familiarity with them.

Dogs are not people. They're dogs.

Their owners are responsible for their behavior in most circumstances, and should be, especially when it comes to being unleashed in public areas requiring they be leashed. Dogs can't seem to read very well, or else they're just not inclined to show us that they can.;)

I encounter dogs on a daily basis in my assignment. Sometimes several times an hour. I'm always the stranger that's causing agitation to their owners, so guess how many of the dogs react to me in a less-than-happy-to-see-me manner. Sure, a lot of them do look at me as an opportunity to play and have fun with a stranger, but more of them simply want a piece of me, or of us.

My partner ... being the dog lover, former K-9 handler and former puppy police that he is ... was recently bit in the hand when he tried to make friends with a large '"friendly" dog. I wasn't present, but he immediately called me to tell me about it (even knowing how much fun I'd have at his expense with it, but knowing I'd have even more fun if he tried to hide it from me.) No warning, no growling, no barking. No apparent emotional agitation on the part of the owner, either, and my partner is so easy-going at times that it makes my teeth hurt. (Guess which one of us often is the "good cop"? ;) ) Just a healthy snap and a couple of perfect puncture wounds in my partner's hand.

You can imagine the fun I had with that for a while. :neener: If he wants to be a "distraction device" and draw the dog's teeth ... who am I to argue? :D As long as it's not me.

I've been fortunate that I haven't yet had to shoot a dog, but I've emptied cans of OC at them, and used other means, while preventing too many of them to remember from biting me. I work with several folks that have had to shoot dogs, though, and their experiences have been anything but consistent when it comes to the effectiveness of using a handgun in stopping a dog from biting another person or an animal. Sometimes it's an instant stop, and sometimes the dog seems as though it simply loses interest in biting after hearing the gunshot(s) ... even though it was hit ... and stands around bleeding all over the place until the HS units arrive, and everything you can probably imagnine in between these examples.

If it has teeth, it can bite. If it can bite, it has the potential to cause serious bodily injury or death ... (okay, maybe not a teacup poodle, but you get my meaning) ... and that's notwithstanding the potential for disease transmission.

I've had a lot of dogs exhibit aggressive behaviour toward me before they attacked, and then I've had them attack me without any warning, and silently. They're predictably unpredictable at times ... sort of like people, in that regard. But they're still dogs.

I hope to never see a dog suffer a permanent injury inflicted on it by my hand, caused by the dog owner's irresponsible behavior, including the failure to control the animal and keep it leashed when necessary and/or required by law. I don't wnat to be biotten, however, and will take the necessary, reasonable steps to prevent from being bitten, or allowing anyone else to be bitten.

I'm not saying that I think this is what happened in this case, because I only know what's written in the paper, and who knows how accurate, or complete, that information is? Time, and appropriate investigative work, will eventually determine what actually occurred in this instance. In the meantime, who among us can say with any certainty?

Now, I will offer the personal observation that most all of the dog owners I've encountered, or simply observed, during my normal off time activities in the Santa Cruz area have seemed to be fine, responsible, considerate people. Almost always carefully aware and sensitive to how their animals may interact with other folks. Downright nice folks all around, when it comes to that ...

Who could ask for more? (People should be so nice to other people). There's also some places that permit dog owners to let their dogs run free, exercise and generally enjoy all the doggy activities that dogs like to do ... within reason, and in some cases within certain time contraints. Hey, we've all got to learn to get along together, and that includes people that own animals as pets.

Okay, I remember hearing something on TV once where dog owners aren't "owners" up in SF, but have some sort of city condoned partnership arrangement with them ... but that's another case.

By the way, when my partner was once asked by a SWAT member, prior to a planned raid, how to best stop a large dog that was considered known to be aggressive and dangerous, using a handgun ... my partner told him the best "handgun" to use was a shotgun loaded with 00 buck. They thought he was nuts, but they're entitled to their own opinions. I also talked to another SWAT fellow who told me about a SWAT member that was having the hardest time trying to dislodge a pit bull from his leg, and that was after shooting it at virtual contact distance with a .40 pistol. Dogs can be tough and somewhat single-minded at times ...

I know another fellow that stopped a charging/attacking pit bull in virtual mid-leap ... with a close combat response using a 9mm pistol.

I had a large German shepherd aggressively running at me, snarling and barking, and when I pulled my .357 Magnum service weapon and screamed at it ... it immediately stopped, dropped to the ground and froze there. Damndest thing I ever saw. You'd almost think it might've realized what a gun was, and what I was about to do, wouldn't you?. In the long run, it turned out to have more common sense than its owner ...

Let's wait to see what happens before we start passing judgment, huh?
 
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You're out of touch!

"What in the world is a pet guardian?"

It's the new PC term for a pet owner. The object is to show that there is a duty to care for a companion animal, as opposed to mere property rights. Whether it will achieve any substantive goal or be merely semantic remains to be seen. :scrutiny:
 
Now in THIS case the LEO says the mutt actually bit him. So by definition if it bit him there will be bite marks...and if there are no bite marks then he is a liar and thus his entire story is discredited.

That's not particularly true. If the Ranger was wearing a somewhat heavy coat and got his arm up to take the bite the dog's teeth might not have left lasting marks through the material. Seems that a lot of people with that attitude are assuming the ranger is lying.....pretty sad.
 
If the Ranger was wearing a somewhat heavy coat and got his arm up to take the bite the dog's teeth might not have left lasting marks through the material.
If he was bitten with enough aggression to warrant shooting he will have marks evn if through a heavy coat we're talking SF here not Minnesota. There would at least be injury to the jacket.
My dog leaves bruises on me just from playing
 
What I would be interested to know is what the Lab was mixed with

Here in Fla there are many reports of Pit Bull attacks.
Eventually the fact that they were actually Pit mixes comes out. And predominately Pit/Lab mixes

I wonder if aggressor are classified as Pit mixes and apparrent victims are classified as Lab mixes.
Maybe if it turns out that the dog was verifiably attacking he would be reclassified
 
Well, joab beat me to the punch. If not in the Ranger's person then in his jacket or whatever. Likely accompanied by bruises. According to his story there WILL be some evidence...or else he had no reason to pull the trigger.

And yes, after years of association with various legalists from rentacops to county persecutors I do almost always assume the cop is lying if his story does not immediately make more sense than that of the "suspect". Especially when it is yet another of these pet shootings. Nope, no pattern at all is establishing itself...as the Smoak's recent success would demonstrate.
 
Why does a dog have to make a "life threatening" attack on a person to warrent a shoot? We arent talking about a PERSON here. It's a DOG. Shooting dogs DOES NOT carry the same burdon as shooting a human. If a dog makes so much as an ATTEMPT at biting a person I have no problem with it being put down right then and there.

2nd Amendment, what is it about the Ranger's story that seems inconsistant to you?

Joab, I am curious as to what the dog was mixed with as well. The picture from the paper isnt particularly clear but, it doesnt really look much like a lab at all to my eyes (of course it DID get shot, so who knows).

15bshot1.jpg


It doesnt really look like it got "shot between the eyes" either, its not really clear though. I would have expected more extensive bandaging.
 
So, if I shoot a mugger do I have to allow him to sink his blade into my chest before it becomes a "good shoot"?

My point was, was the PR shot the dog because it was biting him. That was his justification. I don't have a problem with him shooting a charging dog.

His justification was that it was biting him. Therefore, there should be marks somewhere to corroborate his story. If not, then IMHO, the story is not true.
 
Inconsistency: Time frame and level of attack. She is saying this happened in a matter of seconds and there was zero interaction. The Ranger is saying actual physical attack. That can not happen instantly, nor is there much of a way the owner, standing right there, could miss it. I find it especially inconsistent considering IF an actual attack happened the owner would have to be a total genetic misfire to then claim zero contact. Generally when the "baddie" is trying to make up a lie they include the most obvious bits of truth.

And WHY should a dog have to be a serious threat? It is not YOURS. It is not on your property and more often than not over the past few years the owner in question has been guilty of little or literally nothing to boot. The badge doesn't give anyone special rights regarding the persons or property of others. You owe the same level of consideration, at least, that you would expect from others.

The difference between jack booted thugs and public servants is really little more than the level of consideration shown.
 
I own a lab/pittbull mix.

Not a big dog- 50 pounds- or aggressive.

But if she bit you and she has snapped before when she was a puppy it would leave serious marks.

My dog has sharp teeth.

Even my small 30 pound mutt has sharp teeth and can put a good bite on you if she wanted.

I know cause they have play bited me before.
 
what is it about the Ranger's story that seems inconsistant to you?
The eyewitness tells a different story, but since she's not 'law enforcement' she has no credibility? :rolleyes: How arrogant is that?

Gimme a break. :barf:
 
Why does a dog have to make a "life threatening" attack on a person to warrent a shoot? We arent talking about a PERSON here. It's a DOG. Shooting dogs DOES NOT carry the same burdon as shooting a human. If a dog makes so much as an ATTEMPT at biting a person I have no problem with it being put down right then and there.


Dog alive or dead, it's not a major issue. What is really at the heart of our concern is a police officer, public servant, who may or may not be the kind of person entrusted with oversight and authority over civilians.

I'm sure you're familiar with the correlations between cruelty to animals and other unsavory behaviors.

Perhaps he was having a bad day and just snapped... what would that say about his self-control regarding lethal force?

His actions deserve serious scrutiny.
 
Why does a dog have to make a "life threatening" attack on a person to warrent a shoot? We arent talking about a PERSON here. It's a DOG. Shooting dogs DOES NOT carry the same burdon as shooting a human. If a dog makes so much as an ATTEMPT at biting a person I have no problem with it being put down right then and there.
Coming from that point of view.
A dog is omeone's personal property. Should anyone police or civilian be allowed to destroy personal property with impunity or without a damn good reason

The point is not whether the dog was acting aggressivly or licking hisself the point is that the dog was accused of biting and officer and this was used as justification for the shooting.
If that one piece of the story doesn't hold up then the whole story folds.
If it does hold up then he will be exonerated and she should be charged with giving false information to the police if she put it in the investigation report.
 
"Then again, that wouldn't be the High Road way. Anytime something happens, we need to armchair quarterback it with limited information and take an opportunity to spew some distaste for anytype of law enforcement possible."

I have to believe that we all realize we're operating with limited knowledge of what actually occurred. I'm simply commenting on the situation as it was portrayed in the newspaper story which was cited.

I don't understand how anyone in this thread is "spewing distaste for any type of law enforcement". I was merely commenting on this instance as portrayed in the news. I don't recall ever typing or uttering phrases such as "jack booted thugs", etc. I see a lot of that at AR-15 but not here at thehighroad (which I do appreciate). But at the same time it sure seems to me that some people are a little overly-sensitive to any comment that could possibly be construed as negative towards an individual who happens to have a badge.

Also, I commented on putting the lady in cuffs because I felt it was cruel to have a wounded dog running down the beach. A wounded animal can also be more of a threat to other people.
 
A dog is omeone's personal property. Should anyone police or civilian be allowed to destroy personal property with impunity or without a damn good reason

Perhaps you should have read all the way to the last line of what you are responding to. Here it is again:

If a dog makes so much as an ATTEMPT at biting a person I have no problem with it being put down right then and there.

Looks like we agree.

The eyewitness tells a different story, but since she's not 'law enforcement' she has no credibility? How arrogant is that?

How arrogant is it to assume that her story is more credible than the officers?
 
Hmmm, a nine month old dog might be a puppy by name, but it is a good sized dog. Also note that this isn't a full blooded lab but a "Labrador mix". So we don't know what kind of mix

A 9 month old puppy could be a good sized dog. We don't know what lab mix is.
What bothers me is that people are questioning what type of dog was involved. People here are mentioning pit bull attacks.
Lines like this only invite speculation and stir up unfounded fears. Leave the breed alone and focus on the important things. Pits do not attack because they are pits for the same reason guns do not go off unless their triggers are pulled. There is some flexibility in this rule but that is usually the exception. i.e. dog goes insane or gun has really cheap/worn parts inside.

FYI, the dog that followed "The Little Rascals" around was a pit. Did it ever harm those children? You are statistically more likely to be bitten by a cocker spaniel than a pit.
 
really without knowing the truth what the argument really is here-

was the officer justified????

we can't know without knowing whether he was actually bitten or not
(since it is only a claim at this point).

so this thread is mostly a debate of well, he must have been attacked or he wouldnt have shot the dog.

to argue whether a Ranger has he right to shoot an attacking dog or not?
why bother, he has the right.
is it ethical to shoot the dog before it bites??
man that is so dependant on the situation, no sense debating it.

NOW- did the dog actually attack this guy?????

who knows.
 
really without knowing the truth what the argument really is here-

was the officer justified????

we can't know without knowing whether he was actually bitten or not
(since it is only a claim at this point).

so this thread is mostly a debate of well, he must have been attacked or he wouldnt have shot the dog.

to argue whether a Ranger has he right to shoot an attacking dog or not?
why bother, he has the right.
is it ethical to shoot the dog before it bites??
man that is so dependant on the situation, no sense debating it.

NOW- did the dog actually attack this guy?????

who knows.
 
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