Park Rangers shoot puppy between the eyes,puppy lives!

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really without knowing the truth what the argument really is here-

was the officer justified????

we can't know without knowing whether he was actually bitten or not
(since it is only a claim at this point).

so this thread is mostly a debate of well, he must have been attacked or he wouldnt have shot the dog.

to argue whether a Ranger has he right to shoot an attacking dog or not?
why bother, he has the right.
is it ethical to shoot the dog before it bites??
man that is so dependant on the situation, no sense debating it.

NOW- did the dog actually attack this guy?????

who knows. that's the real question
 
No, the REAL question, grasshoppers, is ...




... what happened to the red tennis ball she claims the dog was carrying while the ranger claims the dog was chowing down on him? :)
 
I sort of suspected that sooner, rather than later, this thread would turn into some variation of a cop-bashing theme. Well, maybe "bashing" is too strong of a word. How about "Credibility questioning?". That sounds more reasonable doesn't it? Makes it sound as though everyone's being impartial, non-prejudiced and sensible .... Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Except that it certainly sounds as though it's the credibility of the Ranger that's being automatically questioned, and not the dog owner ... and without anyone here actually having any first-hand, direct knowledge of what actually occurred. Or, allowing the proper authorities to complete their investigation and make a determination.

Was the dog owner permitted by local code to have her dog loose on the beach, and not leashed? Would the dog have been able to attempt to bite the Ranger if it had been leashed? (If it did, or attempted to do so.)

Let's also consider that dogs will sometimes do what dogs will sometimes do.

Was it possible that the circumstances were such that the dog may have perceived a threat to its owner? Was the beach empty and quiet enough that the dog may have considered the Ranger as a "threat" invading the territory in which its owner was located? We don't have ANY idea of how this dog was raised, or whether it had previously been protective of its owner, either by nature or by necessity. But whether or not the dog was "right" in its mind, and by its "natural inclination" think it had to "protect" its owner ... would the dog having been on a leash have perhaps given the owner the opportunity to control the "natural" tendencies of her dog, when the Ranger approached them on the quiet beach at that hour?

By the way, save the "statistics" about the likelihood of being attacked by one breed of dog over another for the folks that like to "prove" things statistically. I've had a couple of cocker spaniels really want to bite me. They were upset, aggressive ... and yes, they had teeth. At my "urging", the owner did finally restrain and control them before they could get at me.

But you know what? Do you want to know the breed of dog that's most often been involved in threatening actions against my partner and I over the last several years? Pit Bulls. Yep. And I know cops who have been involved in raising and breeding them, too, so it's not like I'm picking on some breed of dog that nobody likes, and nobody I know likes. They just happen to be involved in the majority of the situations where it turns out I'm being threatened by dogs. They also happen to be the most common breed of dog involved in the dispatched calls I've heard over the years where some loose dog is threatening people, and especially children, when they've gotten loose and are running around some neighborhood. I can't remember hearing of some cocker spaniel getting loose and being reported as chasing people and acting aggressive. Save your statistics.

Dogs can attack and attempt to bite without obvious warning. Happens all the time. While I obviously can't get into the head of a dog, maybe it might have something to do with how they perceive some threat against them, their owner, or some territorial intrusion where they consider themselves dominant.

I was at this situation one time where an unleashed female pit bull was behaving normally and non-threatening. The dog was outside the owner's residence, in the court yard of an apartment building, and there were several other people present, none of whom were acting the least bit hostile, threatening or agitated. My required presence was obviously not something the dog's owner really preferred, and she was a bit nervous and anxious, but she was being cooperative and wasn't in any immediate, potential criminal "trouble". Everybody involved in the situation was acting outwardly calm and peaceful. Polite and cooperative, at the very least.

Suddenly, while I was calmly discussing the situation at hand with all the folks involved, the dog silently lunged at me, teeth bared, leaping at me from just at the outside edge of my peripheral vision. No warning. None whatsoever. It even surprised the dog's owner, too, as it later turned out.

Anyway, the dog missed, hit the ground hard ... and apparently unexpectedly, on its part ... and tried to collect itself to get away from me. I expected it to make another attack after it quickly gathered itself together. The dog's owner finally reacted and threw herself on the dog, trying to gather it in her arms and control it, as well as to seemingly protect it from me. She was able to get control of the dog. Everyone around us appeared to be in a state of shock at the sudden and unexpected attack on me. It figures.

I wanted there to be no misunderstanding between the dog's owner and myself. I very clearly told her that if she was unable to control her dog, and the dog attempted to bite me again, I'd shoot it. She seemed to clearly understand me, and made an obvious effort to continue to exert her control over her dog. She said the dog hadn't ever acted like that before, and the other folks that lived with her agreed with her. Sometimes dogs act like dogs ... and I was a stranger ... and maybe the dog picked up on her anxiety. Who knows? Whatever the case, the dog once again settled down and didn't act as though it wanted a piece of me.

I completed our business at the scene and we left ... and I wiped the glistening dog saliva off the back of my hand when I got back to our car.

Now, L/E are supposed to be trustworthy. We take an oath. It used to be that if a cop said something in court, it was presumed to be completely and totally truthful ... which is different than factually correct, so save the hair-spiltting. Save the "mistake of fact" and "mistake of law" discussion for another thread sometime ...

I remember listening to judges tell the jury that unless some compelling evidence presented itself which showed that L/E had intentionally lied, that their testimony was to be presumed to be honest. We're supposed to be impartial reporters of facts, observations, and other person's statements, and submit physical evidence for the courts and the jury to consider. Not conjecture, guess and pass judgment. We're sworn to protect the public peace, and preserve and protect the Constitution, both state and federal, and serve the public trust.

Okay, so in recent years we've seen some instances come to light where L/E have been found to be dishonest, have apparently abused their authority and badge of office, failed to serve the public trust in the manner expected, seemingly forsaken their sworn oaths and committed criminal acts ... not the least of which has sometimes been to lie.

I don't like that any better than the public. As a matter of fact, I intensely dislike that MORE than the public, whose faith and trust has been betrayed by some "bad cops". However, just as the public wouldn't think it even remotely reasonable for cops to consider all members of the public as being the same as the small percentage of the seemingly "criminally-inclined" people which are members of the public ... is it fair to automatically think that all cops are prone to lie and misuse their powers and authority every time they're engaged in their duties?

Let's allow the system to perform its function folks. None of us are perfect, and people make mistakes ... and dogs sometimes act like dogs.
 
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Why does a dog have to make a "life threatening" attack on a person to warrent a shoot? We arent talking about a PERSON here. It's a DOG. Shooting dogs DOES NOT carry the same burdon as shooting a human.
My point stll stands
FYI, the dog that followed "The Little Rascals" around was a pit
And so was the Coppertone dog and the RCA dog, as were the three that killed the 4year old boy in Orlando last week
Did it ever harm those children?
Don't know, I don't have access to the medical reports or sick day reports on the actors who were considered little more than property them selves
You are statistically more likely to be bitten by a cocker spaniel than a pit.
That's like comparing getting shot with a BB gun to getting shot with a 9mm
Pits do not attack because they are pits for the same reason guns do not go off unless their triggers are pulled. There is some flexibility in this rule but that is usually the exception. i.e. dog goes insane or gun has really cheap/worn parts inside.
My post had nothing to do with a Pit's tendancy to attack or not. It was clearly about how the media portrays the different breeds.
Now I can see why Yeager got upset with my post in response to his
Yeager, I take it back.
NOW- did the dog actually attack this guy?????
At this point that's the only question that matters.

As I said before if this verifiable piece of the story adds up the officer should be exonerated and the lady should be charged.
 
It is hard to tell what really happened.I wonder if the whole thing could have been avoided if the ranger used different tactics.He could have pulled up,turned on his lights,hit the squawk to get her attention,announced over his PA that the park was closed.He than could have told her to leave and in the future keep the dog on a leash.Seems real simple to me,I mean why even get out of the patrol vehicle?? My guess is that most people would comply.
 
are not wounded animals the most dangerous?

Yet this "dangerous" puppy allowed a stranger to take it to the vet.
If the animal was truly dangerous it would have bit the good samaritan
as well.
I am 100% pro LE,but this has a hard time passing the smell test the longer I
think about it.
 
So what we have is three pages of speculation based on "He said, she said..."

No matter how many times people complain about how news is presented, with comments about lack of useful information and/or distortion of facts, news articles still get discussed as though folks have been given to know what went on...

???

Art
 
fastbolt ~

Both those long posts were excellent, and well-worth reading.

pax
 
Thanks Pax,

Sometimes I decide to get on my soapbox, and it seems I generally don't use less words when I can say something with more words. A fault of which I'm well aware. :neener:

I really understand most folk's desire to voice their own opinions and perspectives on things, and this is one of the wonderful things about freedom of expression.

Of course, while we wouldn't ever voluntarily want to give up our freedom of expression, and having an "informed press" ... (which has got to be one of our more prevalent oxymorons nowadays) ... I sometimes wonder how a lot of folks can so easily fail to consider that while they'd hardly ever want to be subjected to everyone else's "rush to judgment", without the advantage of having all the facts ... :eek: ... that it's no different than what they sometimes do when they make rash, snap judgments about other folk's situations without all of the information.

But that's people for you ...
 
My personal feeling about dogs not being controlled by their owners has changed a little in the past year.

I live on an Indian reservation, where dogs roam at all times. Some are owned, some aren't. When I go walking, I either carry a .45colt or .41mag pistol. If any of the local dogs growl and show their teeth to me, I will shoot them where they stand! I have seen more dog bites here than anywhere else I have worked. They include a gentleman that had his calf muscle ripped free of his leg through his jeans, and a girl with a chewed up leg that was pulled from her bicycle by a dog. Then there are the innumerable faces, hands and other lesser bites.

The dogs here like to pack up, and most have been on the streets since birth. IMO, that makes for unpredictable and dangerous animals. Recently the F&G and LE got together and eradicated a pack of 13 dogs that were not waiting for the cows to get into the cans before eating them.

As I have daily contact with the LE here, everyone of them knows I carry, and will shoot any dog I think is endangering me. They are fine with that, because if they had to shoot the dog, they would be spending days on paperwork for discharging their firearm.

As far as this shoot, who really knows what happened. The parties involved have different perceptions of the event. If he was bit, there *should* have been some marks on him or his clothing to indicate that, and there should have been pictures taken. If there were none.......who knows??

bob
 
So, I'm casually discussing this thread topic with my wife, who is generally the more reasonable of the two of us ... :D ... and has already heard of my assorted doggy experiences at work over the years ...

Her response? Something mumbled to the effect, "Yeah ... Point those teeth at me and watch what happens ...", as she walks off to do something in the kitchen. I'm guessing she still remembers when our kids were small and were threatened a few times by neighborhood dogs ... :scrutiny:
 
Dog owners are idiots...

(now that I have your attention) ...*way* out of proportion to the
general population. (That will get me fried!)

In my family alone (BTW I grew up with LOTS of dogs, cats, fowl,
horses....nemmind) we have three major dog owners:

Lil sis is no BS, you will behave dammit, studies their behavior AS DOGS
and understands that her dogs don't relate to others that way they do
with her. My ideal.

Mom (bless her) has the blind spot as big as her dogs. Most are real
sweeties, but the psycho-cattle-dog-from-hell (for example was just
a misunderstood sweetie. Right. (Actually Mom knew she was MAJOR
psycho, but couldn't bear to send her back to the puppy mill.)

Then there's bigbro. Dog off the leash in a POSTED area? He's got
nothing but contempt for for the people (whose dogs are ON leashes)
who complain. Jerk.

So there's the two ends and middle of the spectrum JUST in one
family.

Outside the family: Family pets run deer to exhaustion, hamstring
them, game warden shoots one or more dogs. Dog owner pitches
a fit, saying "My dog wouldn't do *that*!" Uh-huh.

So, whenever I hear My dog wouldn't do *that*!", it is just like a
campaign promise: Someone is pissing up my back and telling me
it is raining.

Peet
 
Thread necromancy:

I happened to come across this thread in a search, and wondered if there were any updates. What was the court's resolution of the issue?
 
I did a quick search and could only find the original story and something a little interesting

Lucia Baccarro is listed as a volunteer for a pet rescue oprganization
The picture shows her with a dog that looks a lot like the orginal picture of Diego that accompanied the story.

Here's the interesting part

The organization is Pit Bull Rescue of San Diego.

If that same dog had attacked a kid he would have been labeled a Pit mix but when they are trying to garner sympathy it's a Lab mix.


Most attacks labeled as Pit Bull attacks are actually male Pit/Lab mixes under two years old.
I have always maintained that that mixture is the problem not either breed individually.

Neither side of this story has much credibility
 
Even if the internal investigation finds that the ranger should not have fired, you can bet that he won't be charged with any crime.

In this country dogs are "gullty until proven innocent"....Well, actually they're pretty much guilty, no matter what. I've seen so many "good" dogs put down, I cry when I think about it.

99.8 % of all dog "attacks" that I know about, were "provoked" (albeit often unintentionally). But the dog is STILL to blame.

Don't have alot of inof on this one, but IF the dog was barking/snarling, it probably felt there was a threat to its owner. If it DID indeed bite, it was because the dog thouhgt there was an IMMEDIATE threat.
 
After reading this mess I just have one question, IF you were attacked and being accused of shooting this woman's dog with out a legitamate reason, would you not want to show your injuries, or the damage to you jacket etc? Would that not have put the issues to rest? And IF you did have that evidence, and were willing to share it with the media do you think that there woud be any hesitation on the media's part to publish that info?
 
TCB in TN,

As a State Park Ranger, the Ranger involved in this incident may not have been authorized by his supervisor to grant media interviews - one of the disadvantages of wearing a uniform, sometimes.

It is curious that there appears to be no follow-up on the original story, though. I'd think that the various animal-rights groups would have jumped on this story with both feet and kept up the pressure until some conclusion was reached. Instead, it just seems to have quietly died. :confused:
 
Here's the interesting part

The organization is Pit Bull Rescue of San Diego.

If that same dog had attacked a kid he would have been labeled a Pit mix but when they are trying to garner sympathy it's a Lab mix.


Most attacks labeled as Pit Bull attacks are actually male Pit/Lab mixes under two years old.
I have always maintained that that mixture is the problem not either breed individually.

That is interesting. Where did you get the info on Pit/Lab mix attacks?

I had a Rott/Chow mix and now have a Lab/Chow mix. I love 'em, but have also concluded that mixing Chow with anything is really not a great idea.
 
Probably,

The reason for no animal rights follow up is probably because the initial infraction of not having the dog leashed ends the story. When a dog is unconfined or not on a leash, it becomes fair game, even in it's own yard. The fact that Diego was unleashed and was out of her sight for a fraction of a second is enough. That would also be the reason why there are no records of her lawsuit to recover vet bills.
 
That is interesting. Where did you get the info on Pit/Lab mix attacks?
Just personal observation.
Whenever there is a Pit attack story I go out of my way to find all articles Ican on the attack. The percentage of Lab/Pit mixes involved is as impressive as the fact that reporters hide that info at the bottom of the story if they mention it at all.

It may well be that people that want a pit but can't afford Pit prices get a cheaper dog that way

It could also be that Labs are borderline stupid until they are about two years old and mixing that with a dog that is known for stubbornness and tenacity is just an incident waiting to happen

I believe that father's and uncle's love of Labs is the reason for my dislike of puppies
 
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