Pedersoli Patent Breech Query

[John L Venable]

Hi,
I've been bouncing around the Web and been finding conflicting info on this. It is my understanding that Pedersoli uses a Patent Breech on .45 Cal and below. I've seen a couple of other forums mention that .50 and up pedersolis also use this instead of a flat faced breech. I'm coming back here for reliable sources

Also, anyone with a .36 or .45 Pete, what are you using to get in there?

Thanks in advance,

JV

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It is apparently not a universal manufacturing practice at Pedersoli, but the Frontier rifle, also sold in America by Cabelas as The Blue Ridge Hunter, does have such a breech. That rifle runs from .32 to .54. A .22 - .32 (nylon) pistol brush will get in there..., usually a .22 is needed. I think in the .54 you might need the .32 nylon brush. Some Frontier owners have reported unbreeching the rifle, and opening up the front edge of the breech chamber with a drill bit or a stone, to reduce carbon accumulation and to aid in getting the brush into the chamber. I can't tell you if for the entire manufacturing life if the Frontier has had such a breech either, sorry. IF your rifle has such a breech, even if it's not the Frontier, it should clean up with a .22 nylon brush.

LD

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Are you talking about a Palmer breech? That's what this sounds like. It is usually a breech plug with a roughly 1/4 inch hole drilled for the flash of the cap. I have debreeched several Italian guns and found them to be Palmer breeched.

 

[paul harm]

I was under the belief that a patent breech is a two part breech. One that has that part of the breech with the tang screwed into the stock separate from the part threading into the barrel. But now I got thinking - is what I'm describing called a "patented hooked breech" ? Maybe the patent breech is one without a drum screwed on the side. Jackrabbit describes what I think the OP is asking about. Never knew the proper name for it. But I think it also holds the powder and I forget the reason for it. Didn't English dueling pistols have that feature ? Maybe Dave can clear up some things.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I think its supposed to channel a small hot flame into the center of the main charge. That's just my opinion, may be a different one all together.

 

[MEHavey]

anyone with a .36 or .45 Pete, what are you using to get in there?

See Here:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/pedersoli-misfires.745854/#post-9379521

 

[John L Venable]

Are you talking about a Palmer breech? That's what this sounds like. It is usually a breech plug with a roughly 1/4 inch hole drilled for the flash of the cap. I have debreeched several Italian guns and found them to be Palmer breeched.

Not heard the term "Palmer Breech", but Patent or Patented Breech.

 

[John L Venable]

I was under the belief that a patent breech is a two part breech. One that has that part of the breech with the tang screwed into the stock separate from the part threading into the barrel. But now I got thinking - is what I'm describing called a "patented hooked breech" ? Maybe the patent breech is one without a drum screwed on the side. Jackrabbit describes what I think the OP is asking about. Never knew the proper name for it. But I think it also holds the powder and I forget the reason for it. Didn't English dueling pistols have that feature ? Maybe Dave can clear up some things.

I'm here trying to learn and get the facts right... every little bit helps.

 

[paul harm]

Let's see if I remember correctly. There's a one piece breech and with that style the barrel stays in the gun and has small [ 1/16" ] rods going through the under lugs holding it in the stock. There's a two piece breech, called a " hooked breech, " because one piece has a tang and a square hole in it's face that stays in the gun. The other piece screws into the barrel and has a " hook" on it that couples the two tangs together. It has slotted under lugs that wedges go into and can be easily pushed out so the barrel can be removed for cleaning. Why ? Because a barrel staying in the gun takes more cleaning patches and takes longer to clean than one that can be removed, breech end put in a buck of water and a ramrod with a patch on it run up and down the barrel pulling water with it to clean. One bucket with hot soapy water and one with hot clean water. Let's go back to breeches. There is regular and patent breeches. A regular breech that has smooth sides like the barrel it's attached to and only has a tang and the other end threaded in the barrel and can, or can not have the " Palmer channel" in the end that screws into the barrel. This is a small diameter channel. If it has one, the "drum" [ a small cylinder about 1" long and 3/4"dia ] will screw into the breech connecting it to the Palmer channel. The nipple screws into it at a right angle. No Palmer channel, then the drum screws into the barrel. Now we have patent breeches, hooked or not hooked. They are cast breeches with a projection sticking out the side and the nipple goes in it. That makes a drum unnecessary. One less thing to go wrong, like loosening and then the nipple not lining up correctly. They have a small hole drilled through from under the nipple to the, shall I say Palmer channel. I'm not sure all have a Palmer Channel per say, but there is a recess or cavity cast for the small drilled hole. So, to sum it up, we have patent and hooked patent breeches. We have regular breeches that are hooked or not. And any of them can have a Palmer Channel, or not. I hope I've explained everything correctly and if not feel free to correct me. I had never heard of the channel referred to as a Palmer channel, but it sounds good to me. I thought I read one time that a famous English gunsmith called Nock had designed that channel for faster ignition in his dueling pistols. Could be wrong, it's been tooo long ago.

 

[Doak]

Let's see if I remember correctly. There's a one piece breech and with that style the barrel stays in the gun and has small [ 1/16" ] rods going through the under lugs holding it in the stock. There's a two piece breech, called a " hooked breech, " because one piece has a tang and a square hole in it's face that stays in the gun. The other piece screws into the barrel and has a " hook" on it that couples the two tangs together. It has slotted under lugs that wedges go into and can be easily pushed out so the barrel can be removed for cleaning. Why ? Because a barrel staying in the gun takes more cleaning patches and takes longer to clean than one that can be removed, breech end put in a buck of water and a ramrod with a patch on it run up and down the barrel pulling water with it to clean. One bucket with hot soapy water and one with hot clean water. Let's go back to breeches. There is regular and patent breeches. A regular breech that has smooth sides like the barrel it's attached to and only has a tang and the other end threaded in the barrel and can, or can not have the " Palmer channel" in the end that screws into the barrel. This is a small diameter channel. If it has one, the "drum" [ a small cylinder about 1" long and 3/4"dia ] will screw into the breech connecting it to the Palmer channel. The nipple screws into it at a right angle. No Palmer channel, then the drum screws into the barrel. Now we have patent breeches, hooked or not hooked. They are cast breeches with a projection sticking out the side and the nipple goes in it. That makes a drum unnecessary. One less thing to go wrong, like loosening and then the nipple not lining up correctly. They have a small hole drilled through from under the nipple to the, shall I say Palmer channel. I'm not sure all have a Palmer Channel per say, but there is a recess or cavity cast for the small drilled hole. So, to sum it up, we have patent and hooked patent breeches. We have regular breeches that are hooked or not. And any of them can have a Palmer Channel, or not. I hope I've explained everything correctly and if not feel free to correct me. I had never heard of the channel referred to as a Palmer channel, but it sounds good to me. I thought I read one time that a famous English gunsmith called Nock had designed that channel for faster ignition in his dueling pistols. Could be wrong, it's been tooo long ago.

That's exactly correct. The Henry Nock Patent Breech of 1757. Design was/is used in many applications, and has several advantages. 'Lot to talk about here.
Doak

 

[John L Venable]

It is apparently not a universal manufacturing practice at Pedersoli, but the Frontier rifle, also sold in America by Cabelas as The Blue Ridge Hunter, does have such a breech. That rifle runs from .32 to .54. A .22 - .32 (nylon) pistol brush will get in there..., usually a .22 is needed. I think in the .54 you might need the .32 nylon brush. Some Frontier owners have reported unbreeching the rifle, and opening up the front edge of the breech chamber with a drill bit or a stone, to reduce carbon accumulation and to aid in getting the brush into the chamber. I can't tell you if for the entire manufacturing life if the Frontier has had such a breech either, sorry. IF your rifle has such a breech, even if it's not the Frontier, it should clean up with a .22 nylon brush.

LD

Thanks, My Pedersoli's are a .36 Frontier and 2 Band Enfield. I was considering a .45 Flint Pennsylvania, but have decided to go with a Tennessee Valley Muzzleloaders Mountain rifle. The Palmer Patent Breech info was very helpful to me for the frontier.