what type and thickness felt wads

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moses66

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Hi folks I would like to get some info on making felt wads for the 1858 Remington I only use a pietta in .36 and also have a.44 I live in the Uk and we have great difficulty aquiring most things shooting we can only use 2ft long centre fire revolvers or pistols in .22 rimfire so most of the older hand gun shooters now use a black powder rovolvers I have been having problems with mainly my .36 with it fouling up and refusing to turn the cylinder and even end up driving the cylinder pin out with a mallet. I have never used wads only a light load of black powder and a filler of semolina. Ive been told that using a lubed wad would help stop this fouling. So any help and advice would be much appreceated.
I have been looking and learning from this great forum for some time, but its the first time Ive had the nerve to write and ask for help so thanks guys in advance for any info.
ps, I would like to make my own wads if I get the information.
 
I don't think a lubed wad will prevent the issue you're having. It may help with keeping fouling in the bore softer, making it easier to clean, but that's about it.

What are you using as lube? Petroleum based lubes don't play well with black powder, and seem to turn into sticky tar-like substance. For an oil, I use Ballistol. I haven't tried it, but I bet any mineral oil or even cooking oil would be worth a try if you can't get Ballistol. I lube the cylinder pin with Crisco, which is simply cooking shortening. (Excuse the long winded explanations, please, as I don't know what products are available in the UK.)

The most success is, I think, to resign oneself to breaking the revolver down and wiping off the cylinder, base pin or arbor. I bet that we shoot a lot more during each trip to the range than the old timers ever had to in one emergency.
 
Maybe using a different powder may reduce the foulin as well. My understanding is that Swiss is one of the least fouling black powders, and then there are some substitutes that foul much less. What powder are you using?
 
Howdy

You have unfortunately discovered the biggest design defect in the 1858 Remington revolver. The lack of a cylinder bushing on the front face of the cylinder, and the consequent poor performance of the revolver in avoiding cylinder binding.

Here is a photo of the barrel/cylinder gap area of one of my Remmies. The cylinder is a cartridge conversion cylinder, but that does not matter, the concept is the same. Notice how the front face of the cylinder butts directly against the frame. Notice how the barrel/cylinder gap is in the same plane as the location where the cylinder pin emerges from the cylinder. What this means is that every time the gun fires, fouling is blasted out of the b/c gap and it gets deposited directly onto the cylinder pin. As you keep shooting, the fouling works its way down inside the cylinder and causes the cylinder to bind.

Remington1858closeup_zps237cff69.jpg



Here is the same area on a Colt Single Action Army. Notice how the barrel extends through the frame and the front face of the cylinder is set back from the frame. What you cannot see very well in this photo is the arrangement of the cylinder bushing.

BarrelCylinderGap2ndGenColt_zpsd3df912c.jpg



This photo of the barrel/cylinder gap area of a Ruger Vaquero clearly shows the cylinder bushing extending forward from the front face of the cylinder and contacting the frame. Above it the barrel extends back from the frame and the barrel/cylinder gap has been offset horizontally from the place the cylinder pin emerges from the cylinder bushing.

BarrelCylinderGapVaqueroedited_zps16431d2f.jpg


This photo shows the front of an Uberti Cattleman cylinder, a Ruger Vaquero, and a Colt SAA. Notice each one has some version of a raised bushing.

cylinderbushings_zps027e4278.jpg


This photo shows the flat faces of the front of Remington cylinders. There is no bushing.

Cylinders_zps82fea037.jpg


What all this means is it is a losing battle trying to keep the Remington from binding. Yes, you can use the cleanest burning powder you can find, but the Remington design is simply not well thought out for firing multiple cylinder fulls of Black Powder. Remington corrected this when the 1875 cartridge revolver came out and they included a bushing on the front of the cylinder similar to the Colt.

My experience with Remingtons is shooting Black Powder cartridges with huge amounts of Black Powder bullet lube on the bullets and the cylinders still bind up. A wad is not going to help very much.

The simplest solution has already been given. Remove the cylinder after shooting it empty, wipe down the front of the cylinder and wipe down the cylinder pin. Coating the cylinder pin with a good Black Powder bullet lube such as Bore Butter will help a bit, but that cannot take the place of a good cylinder bushing.


One other thing you can try is to cut some grooves around the cylinder pin to hold extra lube. In this photo you can see the grooves I cut in the cylinder pin by chucking it in my drill press and spinning it against a narrow file. This simulates the helical grooves that are cut around the arbor of a Colt style C&B revolver. The grooves served to hold lubricant and make clearance for fouling to build up in. That is part of the reason why a Colt pattern C&B revolver does not bind up as badly as a Remmie does. The other reason is the arbor of the Colt is larger in diameter, which means the fouling will build up over a greater area.

arborandpin_zps63c9b094.jpg


Bottom line is, unless you can find a gunsmith who knows how to install a bushing onto the cylinder of a Remmie, you will always be fighting binding. The easiest thing to do is to simply take the cylinder out after every five shots and wipe down the cylinder face and pin with a damp cloth.
 
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Thanks, this is a great write up and answered a lot of my questions.
I think that I will try machining the spiral groves. Well done.
Bob
 
If you are still interested in felt wads (making them) you'll want 1/8" (3.175 mm) thick hard felt and a punch that is 11.5 mm (.455 inches) or a little more in diameter. You want them slightly oversized.
 
I've been punching wads out of some felt from the fabric store. They're certainly not as thick as would be ideal, but I've been just doubling them up. I'm also too cheap to buy a ready-made wad punch, but for my 44's I use a 50 Browning case that I begged off of one of my friends (It can be a good thing to have a friend with a 50 BMG rifle!) and sharpened the case mouth.
 
What
I do to prevent binding is to merely get a little plastic squeeze bottle filled with olive oil and at each loading place a single drop of oil right at that cylinder and frame juncture where the cylinder rubs on the frame. Hold the gun upwards and twirl the cylinder to work the oil onto the cylinder pin. Also putting some vegetable shortening over the balls will help blow the lube onto the pin when the gun is fired. My Euroarms Remington's will shoot all day but my Uberties bind up without the oil drop after charging all cylinders. You may not need the wads at all. The Seminola may also be contributing to a dry fouling. Experiment and see if it fouls less with only shortening over the balls.
 
I have been having problems with mainly my .36 with it fouling up and refusing to turn the cylinder and even end up driving the cylinder pin out with a mallet. I have never used wads only a light load of black powder and a filler of semolina. Ive been told that using a lubed wad would help stop this fouling. So any help and advice would be much appreceated.

Wads, grease, whatever these are going to gum up to a halt.
I always have some bp solvent with me to spray, drizzle, or squirt in the offending area. I make my own lately.
 
fouling on the remmy

Many thanks rodwha. And driftwood, thanks for the photos I can now understand from them where the problems are. I see you have a spare cylinder that you say is a cartridge conversion we have one similar but it uses 209 shotgun primers behind the blast plate and we can legally use that as it is still a front stuffer using 3.4 grains of smokeless GM3 powder. That's about as near to proper hand guns as we can get unless we have a permanent wrist brace and a long barrel to make the over all length of 24".
Using smokeless does solve the binding up problem but it becomes a costly route to take as a spare cylinder cost £150 plus it and the whole gun has to go to the proof house that's another £60 then to do all of that it has to go to a firearms dealer to send it to be proofed and they charge £25 for the pleasure of doing the business. So as you can see it's nearly the price of an other gun.
I did try Swiss powder and it is a little cleaner but again it cost £54 per pound and our English black powder is only £15 per pound. So I guess I will try your idea with the grooves in the pin, I have some lanolin based lubricant that I got from a ships chandler supplies and that has been a little better, So with the grooves I really think it will help. Thanks again for help much appreciated.
 
I bought my punches from a retired machinist in Ohio for $10 + shipping. I also bought a ramrod for my rifle, as well as a T handle to attach to the rod in case it gets stuck (it's larger than the original).
 
The best and least expensive solution is to remove the cylinder after each 5 or 6 shots(however you load), wipe the face off and reload.
 
What Noz said! I wouldn't recommend filing grooves in a Remington cylinder base pin. It's pretty small in diameter, and the engineer in me says that those grooves would be stress-risers. I'd be afraid of the pin fracturing.
 
The best and least expensive solution is to remove the cylinder after each 5 or 6 shots(however you load), wipe the face off and reload.

Yup, if you read through everything I wrote, that is the easiest thing to do.

I wouldn't recommend filing grooves in a Remington cylinder base pin. It's pretty small in diameter, and the engineer in me says that those grooves would be stress-risers. I'd be afraid of the pin fracturing.

Not a problem. If you look carefully, the grooves I cut into the pin I show in my photo are not very deep. Maybe .020 deep or so. The pin is around .25 in diameter. The grooves are not deep enough to hurt anything. Besides, there are no stresses on the pin that would cause the groove to act as a stress riser. If one were putting a bending force on the pin, that would be one thing, but that is not the situation. The pin just slides into place and there is not much stress on it. Even if there were, using a small rat tailed file would put radii on the bottom of the grooves so there would be no stress risers.


*****


Technically, it is possible to add a gas bushing to the 1858 cylinder. A bushing is fabricated, then a counterbore is cut into the cylinder to receive it. The bushing can be a press fit or it can be a slip fit. Then, a recess has to be cut into the frame to accommodate the new bushing. It can be done, I know one smith who has done it. Unfortunately he is retired now. But I know some other smiths have done it too. The tough part will be finding a smith who can do this modification.

For further reading about gas bushings on cylinders and how they reduce binding, take a look at this thread at CAS City. It is mostly about S&W Top Break revolvers, but towards the end is a photo of a 1858 Remington that somebody added a bushing to.


http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40031.0.html
 
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So I guess I will try your idea with the grooves in the pin, I have some lanolin based lubricant that I got from a ships chandler supplies and that has been a little better, So with the grooves I really think it will help. Thanks again for help much appreciated.

There are lots of ways to make up Black Powder compatible lube. One of the simplest I use to make up was 50% Crisco and 50% Beeswax. Crisco is a vegetable based shortening that is easily available in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisco

I melted a glob of Crisco in a double boiler on the stove top, then added a chunk of beeswax. I tried to keep the two ingredients about the same volume, but it is not critical. The mixture is flammable, that's why I used the double boiler. Today I use commercially available SPG, but there are lots of home grown recipes for Black Powder compatible lube.
 
That has to be the best write up with photos I have ever seen. Thanks for your time with putting that together. Thanks Driftwood
 
I can't see the advantage of cutting grooves in a Remington base pin anyway. The things flat on one side - I just "build it up" with Wonderlube. Seems to last about 3 cylinders before I have to add more. I've been running it on synthetic cycle chain oil recently :eek: cos I ran out of Wonderlube. Sliding the pin partway out and adding a couple more drops while reloading seems to keep things moving.
For my money, over ball lube is a waste of time. It's all gone (everywhere!) after the first shot, and then you fire five without it...
I prefer to use dry Wonderwads which I soak in a home made 50/50 mixture of olive oil and beeswax. I've been lucky because the wad plus 21grain of powder is just tall enough for the loading lever to seat the 44 ball without filler. That's a step saved...
The gun stays cleaner when not spattered with grease. Barrel fouling stays soft - and so does the fouling in the front of the chambers. That helps a lot.
One day soon I intend to try lube pills - why go to the trouble and expense of wads when you don't need them? Sounds good to me!
Hope there's something there to help!
 
So I'm a bit curious if using a cleaner powder such as Triple 7 would help well enough to keep an 1858 running much longer. I'm getting one for Christmas once Cabelas restocks them!
 
Wads help remove fouling from the barrel. Durofelt in the USA sells sheets of it 1/8" thick which is perfect for our use. You can get an off the shelf punch or a custom diameter ground to punch them out. For lubrication, you can make your own too, see the Gatefeo recipe.

Pull the cylinder after every 2nd or 3rd round and wipe the fouling off and coat with bore butter. There's no need to beat it with a mallet, if it's stuck at the end of the day, dunk it in hot water for a few minutes and it will move again.
 
My"1858" Remington is a 1968 built Uberti and it has part of the bottom of the arbor flattened. Aren't all of them
I hope nobody thought I was playing with an original! I suppose I should have made it clear - mine's a Uberti too. Sorry!

Overnight I remembered seeing, a few years back, a slightly different approach. Someone had machined a shallow rebate around the base pin hole, in the front face of his cylinder. It was just big enough to accommodate a small O ring which was a snug fit on the pin and formed a labyrinth seal to stop fouling blowing along it. I never saw any follow up. Even though I didn't want to use it myself it struck me as an idea worth bearing in mind, just about within the bounds of DIY
 
Moses66 .... you said "we have one similar but it uses 209 shotgun primers behind the blast plate" ... can you provide a link to the cylinder that uses the 209 primers?
 
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