Pelvis Area Hit instead of Chest/Head?

Status
Not open for further replies.
In addition to the stories of the soldiers being shot in the pelvis and fighting through, during the Haiti earthquake, a woman walked onto the evacuation plane, complained of pain, took some aspirin, and went to sleep. Upon arrival in the Dominican Republic, she walked off the plane and collapsed. The EMT who treated her informed me that her pelvis had been crushed when her hotel fell on top of her. She still managed to walk to the Embassy, onto the plane, and off before her body finally couldn't take it anymore. It had been 12+ hours since the quake. Just something to think about, bullets are a lot smaller than concrete chunks...
 
In addition to the stories of the soldiers being shot in the pelvis and fighting through, during the Haiti earthquake, a woman walked onto the evacuation plane, complained of pain, took some aspirin, and went to sleep. Upon arrival in the Dominican Republic, she walked off the plane and collapsed. The EMT who treated her informed me that her pelvis had been crushed when her hotel fell on top of her. She still managed to walk to the Embassy, onto the plane, and off before her body finally couldn't take it anymore. It had been 12+ hours since the quake. Just something to think about, bullets are a lot smaller than concrete chunks...
Folks have been hit with BB guns and died. Others have been hit with RPGs and survived. While things out of the norm do occur, they are sufficently rare that I don't have time to worry about them. All you can do it take your shot and hope for the best.
 
In addition to the stories of the soldiers being shot in the pelvis and fighting through, during the Haiti earthquake, a woman walked onto the evacuation plane, complained of pain, took some aspirin, and went to sleep. Upon arrival in the Dominican Republic, she walked off the plane and collapsed. The EMT who treated her informed me that her pelvis had been crushed when her hotel fell on top of her. She still managed to walk to the Embassy, onto the plane, and off before her body finally couldn't take it anymore. It had been 12+ hours since the quake. Just something to think about, bullets are a lot smaller than concrete chunks...
"collapsed" means she fainted/fell, or she died? Just wanted to be sure.
 
We talk about the pelvis being an easier area to hit; but if you take the actual space occupied by vital stuff, I'd bet it is significantly smaller than the head.
Not to mention a perfect head shot is instant. Bleeding out takes time, nothing goes "lights out" from a drain of blood. Cutting the spine if your miss went high would be the best bet on a "running gear" shot like we are talking about.
 
Fact of the matter is, you can't armor the face. Some armor has groin protectors and other armor extending down into that area. The head is the one area that it's impossible to fully protect, due to mobility and visibility requirements. And even with a helmet, it's going to rattle their brains a bit and will probably give them a concussion. A face shot is almost always a kill shot, though, and is a guaranteed stop.
 
The only 100% reliable stops are the destruction of the central nervous system, exsanguination, or asphyxiation. Achieving the later two usually require a large amount of damage to various bodily organs, and do not usually result in an instant stop. A CNS stop usually requires engaging a small well armored target. Attempting to achieve a "mobility kill," etc. is predicate on the assumption that being able to run away solves the problem. Sometimes this true, sometimes it is not. If there is not better target, sure aim low, however if at all possible get high thoracic or head shots.

-Jenrick
 
A lot of companies especially are training that to their joe's. It mostly has to do with the BG wearing armor. The head has always been and will always be a harder target. So why risk missing. Aim low.
 
Brings to mind a police shooting where I lived back in the early 90s. It was a big deal because there were allagations on excessive force. The officer shot the bad guy in the pelvis and he dropped like a sack of rocks - it happend in the view of his camera. The man was dead by the time the ambulance arrived at the scene. The coronor's report stated that even if an ambulance had been right there the man would've probably died. Something about cardiac arrest brought on by shock to the circulatory system, ie. severed femoral artery.
 
Knife fighters will often attack the pelvic area because the arteries and the bladder are vulnerable. An attack to the bladder and a person will pee blood and bleed out in 30 sec to a min. Slashing knives are more effective in this regard as they make longer wound channels which means they are more likely to connect with the intended target.

If confronted with an opponent with a vest on there are a few other places that a vulnerable. The arms are exposed as well as the shoulders on most vest. The armpit area is also a good target if the arms are raised. These places may be smaller targets but they are viable options and have a good effect on stopping ones actions when damaged. Major arteries wrap around the inner shoulder and would cause a great deal of blood loss. Also a shot the the shoulder would make it very difficult to fire a shoulder mounted weapon and make handgun firing difficult. This would buy you some time and time is the most valuable commodity to have in a situation like this. I would give every bullet I have to gain a 30 second jump on the bad guy in a SD situation.
 
Just following on this; getting down, lying down, it seems a prone position where you are not exactly fully horizontal, but supported by maybe a shoulder (support side shoulder?) and your strong side knee is propping you up somewhat, might be the ideal position to hold a handgun with both arms, pointing up? Or should we sit down on our butt? (Assuming crouching down is not as stable). Basically, sitting or prone rifle positions, for handgun.
You do what you have to do to lower yourself.

It's not the exact way you lower yourself it's the fact you do so the angle of the shot makes it safer.

Squat down, or just bend your knees. Just lower yourself some. Just how much will depend on the angle need to make the shot.

DefiantDad,

There may be people jostling you (trying to get away from the nutjob), you might have your loved one in the other arm, pushing people out of way, etc...

I suggest if one is thinking of stopping a 'batman' style attack then don't spend much time worrying about the particular weapon to use.

Whatever you carry, be it a 2 inch snub, Glock, H&K, Ruger, S&W M&P, etc... spend time practicing and practicing and practicing with what you got!

For you see it's not the weapon but what needs to be done with whatever weapon you have that matters.

Yes the snubs are harder and the 1911 SAs easier but when the gong sounds you fight with what you have.

So practice till with whatever you have you can hit a moving head and say 5 yards, one handed EVERY TIME. Even with someone jostling you.

For that is what you are going to need to be able to do. Yes head shot. I call it COS (center of skull) shot.

Hard to do? Yes. But for a possibly armored target with many bystanders there is no other solution.


Deaf
 
Bottom line IMO is if you're shooting at another human being you shoot to kill.

If you don't you will most likely be sued.
Ahh, but we shoot to "stop" not kill (we must be politically correct, not to mention on good legal footing). If the target dies, then that is just a consequence of our stopping him/her.

And regardless of whether the target lives or dies, you will likely be sued. The only difference is who will be filiing the suit.
 
decades ago i trained myself by drawing 2 triangles on the body

one connects the shoulders and than the bellybutton
the second connects the hips and than the groin

picture the anatomy behind those triangles....

i did not know of terms than, just commen sense--if you shatter a hip, one can not scurry fast. i like SWC'ers cause they destroy tissue thus promoting bleeding faster.

shooting IDPA is fun, but at speed i usually revert to how i have trained and my scoring reflects that.
 
It is hard to know if someone has body armor. So I think just hitting the target may create the space to get out or move to cover.
 
Stephan Wenger makes a case for pelvic shots on his website, but he states that at least 38 plus P would be needed to break bone. Neither of my carry guns are 38 plus P, so that leaves it out for me unless the pelvic area was the only shot available for some reason.

With my shotgun it might be workable, especially if I was a low ready and could ``walk`` up the guy as I shot. Its not likely that I will ever run into anyone with body armor, so its one tool in the arsenal, not a main strategy.
 
There are anecdotes of pelvic hits causing immediate and decisive results, but also plenty of anecdotes of folks still being mobile with a badly fractured pelvis. I reckon that there are circumstances in which the pelvis is a desirable target, but most of the time, I would go for the neck and head if the upper torso is not a workable solution. Of course, if the dynamics of the situation indicate that any available shot should be taken immediately, and the pelvis is available, then the pelvis it is.

I am certainly no doctor, nor other medical professional, but some of my college courses were aimed in that direction. The way I see it, pelvis really needs to be badly broken in two separate places to decisively anchor someone.

Based on anecdotal accounts, I see the pelvis as a higher-value target if I am wielding a shotgun, compared to a handgun. This is all the more so if the target is animated, bobbing and weaving as he moves, as the pelvis is going to be the most stable part of the anatomy.
IIRC, one or more of these anecdotes may have penned by Col. Charles Askins; I am just not sure. I do seem to recall the good Colonel preferring to hit them "spang through the brisket," or something like that. I really should revisit the Colonel's writings...

As for the arteries mentioned in the OP, well, yes, the abdominal aorta and the femoral arteries are major bleeders!

A downside to targeting the abdomen is that many of the important bits are covered by mass quantities of fat, if engaging targets in the westernized parts of the world. The major arteries, and the pelvis itself, may be well quite deep, which is why I do not see the abdomen as a viable target for some pocket pistols. If I am carrying my Seecamp, I really need to be aware that it is for the face and neck, and perhaps upper torso. (My Seecamp is virtually never my only weapon.)
 
FWIW, it is not unusual for me to be dispatched to proceed, code one, lights and siren, to home invasions in progress. We usually arrive too late, and many these calls are not really armed home invasions, but engaging armored bad guys is often on my mind.
 
The late great Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stakeout Squad fame stated in one of his books that the most effective shot for stopping somebody was shooting them through the hips/buttocks. He said they might still be alive, but they ain't going anywhere.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
Last edited:
The pelvis is near the center of gravity and is the most stable part of the body. Those who played football will remember the drill to overcome a head fake, watch his hips.
 
The late great Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stakeout Squad fame stated in one of his books that the most effective shot for stopping somebody was shooting them through the hips/buttocks. He said they might still be alive, but they ain't going anywhere.

If he said it, then he overstated the position. It is far from a definitive stop and people often go places. Lots of people get shot through the butt. Notice that none of the other firearms trainers go this route, claiming the region to be that effective. It is the last major area suggested before all you have left is arms or legs.

Some shoot themselves in the butt and still run away.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24/texas-man-accidentally-fires-gun-in-walmart/
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top