Shot Placement (Most Vital Spots Ranked)

[fastbolt]

... With the uptick of popularity in body armor ...

Uptick of popularity of body armor? You mean criminals wearing it?

I've read about this among a number of gun forums now and again, and it's certainly a popular trope for TV shows and Movies, but I haven't been able to read about it among LE sources.

Back before I retired I was also reading and hearing people talk of the alleged increase in body armor being worn by criminals, but the ordinary facts seem to lean more heavily toward it being on the rare end of things. Rare enough that it seemed to be sensational and make the news when it occurred, but those instances were/are still few and far between.

Matter of fact, while I was out and about as a working cop in the late 2000's, the only time I remember coming across a suspect possessing body armor, he was carrying it in a duffel bag. He was armed at the time we encountered him (carrying a Walther PPK/s in nasty condition, with nasty condition ammo). He was a convicted felon, so his possession of the gun resulted in him doing some serious time (since we handed him over to ATF, at their request, so they could add the conviction to their stats under one of their existing gun violence programs).

Now, while I've been retired from my regular peace officer career for about a dozen years, and turned in my reserve ID/badge and gear about 4 years ago, I still talk to some active cops now and again. The possession of body armor is still rare enough to be noteworthy (and newsworthy, of course), so I don't plan my retirement weapon choices around concerns about encountering it. Sure, we created and planned "failure-to-stop" drills and scenarios going back many years in LE firearms training, and those are still an integral part of my continuing practice drills and periodic quals, but they aren't just predicated upon encountering some criminal attacker wearing body armor.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I’m sorry you feel that way. With the uptick of popularity in body armor, the pelvic girdle is the next largest body surface area available. Also, a vascular and debilitating location. In a close quarters defensive situation, depending on how you’ve learned or been taught to draw, the initial draw position is naturally directed toward this location in which you can begin firing from.

Yes, the pelvic girdle might be your secondary target location if you learn that a person is wearing body armor.

Vascular? Not hardly, but the only vital organ in the pelvic region is going to be vascular. Then again, the same is true for the legs and arms.

Debilitating? Not so much with pistol rounds. First of all, people miss the pelvis with pelvic girdle shots with some frequency, or they hit the iliac blade, which is the largest part of the innominate. However, at pistol velocities, the bullets tend to punch holes through the blade or break off a bit of the edge of it. That is debilitating like shooting a hole through the shoulder blade. It hurts a lot, but isn't truly debilitating physiologically.

Saying "pelvic girdle" is one of those generic and almost useless terms when it comes to anatomy and ballistics, sort of like "head shots" is. People seem to think, back on some writings of noted gun gurus that a shot to the pelvis will put the person down and the fight is over. People seem to think that a head shot is fatal. Unfortunately most of the head and most of the area of the pelvic girdle (since you have included the vascular aspect, you are referring to more than just the bone) is largely non-vital.

Depending on where you learned to draw? I see we are slipping back into the zipper method. Great. Why not start with shooting them in the feet and just work your way up?

 

[ACES&8S]

Snake shot, first round in my 357 mag revolver, shoot at the face, the rest are chest not lower. Yes I am a wheel gun man.
We are older now & have to rely on security cams & stuff but we use KEY NUMBERS to pass along any danger signs to each
other as well as our grown kids, they know them as well.
My wife only uses a Walther 22 which she will empty every week, she is not the scream & run type which she has proven
in the past while hunting, she can reload easily but I still worry that she might not be carrying a pistol that would stop someone
before they do lethal damage to her.
The snake shot in the face indoors would be blinding or at least make someone think they are shot in the head.
I can reload quickly but have never had to try it under pressure.
My experience with deer hunting shows head is instant & chest is sometimes instant, plus I know where in our home is
the best cover for bullet penetration & where not to use for cover.
Out in the real world no snake shot just 125 grain hp.
Bad guys in home invasion are using stun guns & mace these days, we don't open the door for just anyone.

 

[Kleanbore]

Snake shot, first round in my 357 mag revolver, shoot at the face, the rest are chest not lower.

I know of no instructors who recommend shot in a revolver for SD. Tom Givens recommends against it.

My experience with deer hunting shows...

Do not conflate hunting and self defense.

 

[Jim Watson]

I know of no instructors who recommend shot in a revolver for SD. Tom Givens recommends against it.

I think it was M. Ayoob who said that if you shot somebody with "snake shot" it could be taken as a sign that you did not think deadly force was justified, so you might get charged with shooting to maim if the case was controversial or if you had an aggressive DA.

 

[ACES&8S]

Tom Givens doesn't defend my home, plus I didn't say I would only shoot 1 time.
If the home invader has a gun, I wouldn't stop & admire my work, it would be kill or be killed.
I respect Mr. Givens & he was talking about shotguns & birdshot of course, but just
to be sure, without babbling, I have connections to ask about the maim question, it
does make me question my load, I will have an answer by tomorrow, maybe today.
Thanks for the insight.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

If you're at the point in self defense where you feel deadly force is justified, don't kid around about it. It's either justified, or it's not...and that's pretty much the way the law looks at it. Which they WILL.

Snake shot is not the kind of round you want to intentionally utilize in such scenarios. I've shot chipmunks close range with shot shells and not killed the buggers, nor stopped them from running off.

Betting your life, or the life of others, on the ability for snake shot to effectively deter a violent attacker is somewhat LESS than subpar.

 

[Kleanbore]

Tom Givens doesn't defend my home

I suggest that he knows a lot more about it than you do.

plus I didn't say I would only shoot 1 time.

I would never expect to shoot only one shot in a defense encounter.

...it would be kill or be killed.

That is not a lawful objective in a defensive situation.

Mr. Givens.... was talking about shotguns & birdshot of course,

He was referring to birdshot and buckshot from a revolver, which would be much more effective than snake shot. Snake shot fall very short in penetration,

 

[ACES&8S]

In a home invasion with armed offenders knocking down your door, it is kill or be killed, I stand on that.
Even Tom Givens said= The new generation are taught , don't fight back, call 911 so somebody else makes
the bad man go away. When it is really up to you & your right to protect yourself.
However in the snake shot, I DIGRESS, not due to pressure but by looking into Tom Givens point you
are both correct. Never to old to learn.

 

[2zulu1]

Have you tried that in a realistic situation?

This is as far as I've read this thread, yes, in a lethal threat situation time does/can, not always, "slow" down...it has nothing to do with stopwatches, but it does mean the speed and acuity of how fast the brain can focus and is functioning. How well does your brain function during critical encounters?

Decades ago, and still does, Bill Jordan heavily influenced our/my duty training with .357 magnums. We trained high center chest and headshots, while 38 Special 158gr, soft lead round nose could and did "racetrack" around bone and soft tissue... 357mag could and did "blow out" the opposite side of head hits: detect threat and deny the assailant. More recently, Ken Hackathorn instructs, with 4" circles, head and heart shots, including active shooter(s).

Given where I live and wildlife seen on the property, I often carry a 686P with handloaded 158gr Winchester Jacketed Hollow Points in the upper 1400s, it's an accurate, excellent performer through soft tissue and bone...

I've been hard charged by pit bulls, very fast moving, one round headshots from 1911s in .38Super and .45 auto, DRT, immediate stops, point shooting. Now if a senior citizen like myself, with average shooing ability can do this, there's no reason why others can't train to do the same...remember;

1. Mindset
2. Skillset
3. Toolset

In this order

 

[Kleanbore]

In a home invasion with armed offenders knocking down your door, it is kill or be killed, I stand on that

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

We have discussed this ad nauseam here.

Read this:

[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/why-we-do-not-shoot-to-kill.870188/"]Why We Do Not Shoot to Kill[/URL]

When it is really up to you & your right to protect yourself.

Defending oneself, yes, if necessary, but it is always better to let first responders do it, it one can, rather than to expose oneself to death or serious injury.

The only really good defensive use of force encounter is the one that doesn't happen.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Shoot. To. Stop.

That's it.

Death MAY result (deadly force and all), but the goal is to stop the attack.

 

[gyp_c2]

OK...
For some reason in these threads, everyone has a built in rangefinder and xray eyes.
Every humans' anatomy is different!
If you are shooting at COM and keeping all yer' shots in a softball size group, while moving,
the target is moving, and doing it at speed,
My hat is off to you. Consistency counts.

 

[GE-Mini-Gun]

But the part inside the head that will likely effect an immediate stop is about the size of a racquetball.

While I have no reason to question you on this as I'm not a doctor...I would think you do not have to hit that area to cause an immediate stop...how many videos have you seen with people getting punch in the face/head and going down like a sack of taters...lights out. Again, I'm no doctor, but I would imagine a shot to the head would have the same "impact" to the brain.

 

[Kleanbore]

While I have no reason to question you on this as I'm not a doctor...I would think you do not have to hit that area to cause an immediate stop...how many videos have you seen with people getting punch in the face/head and going down like a sack of taters...lights out. Again, I'm no doctor, but I would imagine a shot to the head would have the same "impact" to the brain.

I am not a competent source on this, but those that are say just what I said.

 

[GE-Mini-Gun]

Again, I do not doubt you or them; I'm just saying that a shot to the head has to take the fight out of someone, whether or not you hit the “racquet ball”

 

[1942bull]

I was trained for CQB with a pistol (M1911) in 1963. We practiced a technique for CM shooting that, assuming one mastered it, was very devastating. Click on the thumbnail to see the illustration of the thoracic cavity organs, etc. I drew the vertical black line and the crossing lines. The vertical line is centered on the spinal column from the neck to just below the sternum. The crossing lines are not specific to any organs. They serve only to illustrate possible points of impact using the technique below.

Take aim just below the sternum. There you see the heart and the aorta. Obviously a hit there is going to at least incapacitate. The next crossing line shows the largest section of the aorta (red) where it branches out to the brain. The Vena Cava (a blue) is the largest vein in the body. Put a hole in that and a person would bled out in a couple minutes and have a likely disabling drop in blood pressure. The third crossing line shows the spinal column (purple). Hit that and it’s over instantly.

The technique is to purposely let the pistol ride up rather than bring it back to the aim point. You pull the trigger 3 times in rapid succession. The bullets strike along the rising a rising vertical line from bottom to top. I think everyone knows that it would be effective.

It was very hard to learn. We trained in Weaver stance. If you ever watch Paul Harrell on YT, he is shooting from a modifies Weaver stance. The hard part is to keep a tight grip with the as locked as you can achieve. The shoulders have to be loose enough to allow the arms to rise. I do not shoot in the isosceles stance but I think it would work if you had a slight bend at the elbows. My CQB method is the center access relock system. It is much easier to do the above in that way because of how you position the pistol for close targets. One other thing to realize is that farther you are from the target the greater the spread is going to be. So it is for close in fighting only.

To answer the question: does it work? It does. As I have indicated in some other threads I cleared buildings in Hue City. Average distance to target was between 2 and 4 yards. Let me reiterate — it takes lots of practice to get it right.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Again, I do not doubt you or them; I'm just saying that a shot to the head has to take the fight out of someone, whether or not you hit the “racquet ball”

That would be a naive assumption. It might take the fight out of someone, or not. Of course, shooting them in the hand might take the fight out of someone as well, right?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=60xqq1JExtk
https://www.tampabay.com/news/pasco...-the-head-kept-fighting-gunman-until-he-died/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-head-pummels-shooter-into-submission.104134/

Don't know if it took the fight out of her, but she was shot 6 times in the head and survived quite fine...
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/woman-shot-six-times-in-head-lives.233867/

 

[Jeff White]

In the infamous 1986 FBI Miami shootout, Mattix took a hit to the aorta from a 9mm Silvertip in the first few seconds of the gunfight yet he remained in the fight long enough to kill 3 FBI agents. He murdered those agents after he received a fatal wound. The seconds that it took him to bleed out enough to lose consciousness were enough.

There are plenty of documented examples of people functioning long after they received wounds that should have been instantly fatal.

You just can’t count on an instant stop....

 

[2zulu1]

I think it's also worth noting that "plac[ing] a lot of emphasis on training to a level of ability where you can make head shots at least out to 12 meters when necessary" is stupid if you haven't already developed at least the basic skills necessary to handle COM shots at the 3 to 7 yard range.

This is not to say longer distance shooting skills aren't necessary, but "a lot of emphasis" implies "the majority of one's time and training". Most self defense scenarios take place at more intimate distances, and those shorter distances involve their own difficulties which make shooting more of a challenge.

Greater range eliminates a lot of those challenges because it opens up the time to respond.

DO get some distance shooting skills, but don't sacrifice your shorter rage skills to do so.

It's foolish to think people don't train this way...my training goes back decades and part of that training had to do with taking headshots when/if appropriate to end the gun fight. Our training was heavily influenced by Bill Jordan, after all these years, I often carry a 696P/4" and still train with it.

Regarding Hackathorn in a church with an active shooter(s), it's a combination of marksmanship and tactics. Since I'm on a small church security team, what Hackathorn taught was/is important to me. Decades ago we were taught high center chest, draw an imaginary line between the armpits, center of that line is the aim point, this works for frontal, oblique and lateral angles. Hackathorn draws two 4" circles, I use an IDPA target, one at high center chest and one at the head. From a sitting position with back to the target, at buzzer, turn, detect location, move to a point of domination and fire either two accurate shots high center chest or one shot to the head (w/i 10 yards). Debriefing from active shooter accounts, there's about a five second interval, during which the congregation is attempting to comprehend what is happening, after which there is total bedlam.

Within this ~5 second window there is time to detect the origin of shot(s), move to a place of domination and fire two accurate shot's w/i the 4" circle high center chest or one shot w/i the head 4" circle.

Here's my short range with table and chair, simulating Hackathorn's marksmanship and tactic...

Of all these numerous bottles, this can be setup 360 degrees, only four have red caps and only two are viable targets. From buzzer, which ever direction my head rotates is the direction my body will rotate as I stand and move to a place of domination, scanning for red caps to engage. The goal is to deny the shooter(s) further engagement.

This day was a Smith & Wesson 27-2 5" (1973) shooting handloaded (W296) .357mag ammunition...hope this helps.