Pentagon adviser: France 'no longer ally'

[Mike Irwin]

"Well, how was anyone to know that the mujaheddins would change their minds and objectives? Or Noriega, Saddam Hussein, Khomeini, Pinochet,... . Oh this damned thinking of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". "

And your point is?

It sounds almost as if you're advocating strict national isolationism at all times...


As for Britain and France in 1937 and early 1938, it's likely that a war would not have been necessary -- a hard line approach would likely have sufficied at that time.

Germany was in no real condition or position to start a war in Europe against France in 1938, either.

By many accounts, Hitler was shocked that France and Britain rolled so easily on the subject of Czechoslovakia. The surrender of the Seudetenland (sp?), without consultation of the Czech government, indicated to Hitler that France and Germany wouldn't fight over the rest of Czechoslovakia, either, and he was right.

He also figured, wrongly, as history records, that they wouldn't fight over Poland, either.

By that time, though, the German military had been given an extra 18 months to arm, which, combined with French and British actions, made war inevitable.



The insinuation that American forces fueled Kriegsmarine vessels prior to the entry of the US into the war is an absolute, complete, LIE.

American policies toward Germany after mid-1939 were very clear. While all nations were theoretically able to participate in the "cash and carry" and later "lend lease" programs, officially any items asked for by Germany or Italy were either "back ordered" or were simply "unavailable." After the initiation of hostilities in 1939, no aid for Germany was available in America.

As for the location of American companies in Germany that aided the German war effort, there were German companies in the United States that aided the American war effort.

Overseas corporations were as much a fact of life in 1939 as they are today.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

It's not as if Henry Ford was placing orders for steel for tanks and trucks for the Opal plant, nor was FoMoCo profiting from the businesses that were supplying the Nazi war effort.

At the outbreak of hostilities, the US formally seized most businesses owned by German corporations, and Germany reciprocated.

 

[T.Stahl]

German U-boats were filled up by ships flying the US flag (not US forces) after the war had started and before the US entered the war.

Yes, tetra-ethyl lead, the stuff that makes gasoline "leaded". I just couldn't remember its name.

Mike, my point is that we all make mistakes in our foreign politics. Just look at the inventory of the armies of states we don't like. Iraq has Bo 105 helicopters, Iran has F-14s and Cobras (if they have any spares left). I only suggest to be careful. Who knows if Egypt and Saudi-Arabia will one day decide to use their Abrams and F-15s against Israel instead of to keep Iraq and Libya at bay.

 

[RTW]

I'm pretty sure that all the subs ran on diesel fuel. I don't think it needs lead additive.

Aviation gas is another story.

 

[T.Stahl]

Of course the subs ran on diesel, German subs getting refilled by US merchant ships is a different part of the story.

But: no tetra-ethyl lead = no mighty Luftwaffe to support the Blitzkrieg

 

[1goodshot]

I hear the French only take a bath every 2 or 3 days, we dont need them stinking up the war. Let them stay home.

 

[Stephen Ewing]

The Luftwaffe secured a two-year supply of tetra-ethyl lead in 1938 from Standard Oil, assuming peace-time consumption. This essentially was only useful during the blitz through Poland, where it wasn't particularly crucial. Roosevelt signing off on it is, admittedly, shameful. See "The Crime and Punishment of I.G Farben" for details.

There's a SERIOUS misunderstanding somewhere on the "American" vessels fueling U-boats. I can name some of them, although I can't recall off the top of my head what was painted on the stern when they were flying American flags: Atlantis, Kormoran, Pinguin, and Orion spring to mind. All commissioned Kriegsmarine vessels, armed as merchant raiders, flying the flags of whoever was handy, frequently British, Greek, Norwegian, or Japanese.

Or, pretending for a moment that they WERE American, how in the name of Marian Rejewski are they supposed to talk to BdU to schedule a meeting with a U-boat? Which brings up why BdU ran an all-German operation.

To recap, yes, American fueling U-boats is just that, a story.

Steve

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

As I have said on Glock Talk, discussing historical hypotheticals has very severe limits. Some historians would say that the very concept is impossible. I used to be a history major before I changed to economics, so I know many historians who flatly refuse to speculate about hypothetical scenarios.

History is full of "what ifs" and it is only natural to speculate on what our forefathers should have done. In certain cases one is able to make a value judgement based on current evidence and current mindset. In other cases, the situation is nebulous and in yet others completely unclear.

My point (if I even have one) is that to Americans or even Europeans of 1933-39 the choice was not between going to war against Hitler early to make sure he didn't become more powerful and appeasement. Most contemporaries simply didn't see the situation in that light. Many people indeed saw another war brewing, but it was unclear about how it would start, which countries would be most important, and how it would end.

For example, many thought the Maginot line would hold, and France's millions of troops quickly dispatch any German invasions. Others thought Russia would ally with Germany to take on the rest of western Europe. Still others thought that Italy would be the impetus behind European conquests.