Pentagon Argues Against Draft

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As for my understanding of WWII, pretty much every single teenager in the country knew that they were going to go. My Grandfathers knew this. Why enlist when it was a given that they were going to send you a letter telling you when and where to report. (actually one of my grandparents didn't get a draft notice so he went down the the recruiters to sign on. They wouldn't let him because he was a dairy farmer and Roosevelt said that they were needed at home).

It wasn't like you could show up as an 18 year old farm boy with no skills and say that you wanted a certain MOS. :)

I think that if there hadn't been a draft then more people would have enlisted for WWII. Just a guess on my part since I wasn't alive then.

And yes in my opinion that war does meet my definition of just. I would have went in a heartbeat.
 
When this country is invaded, and I suspect it eventually will-after all, we are occupying the same dirt everyone else is, it will be interesting to see who thinks they are too important to go, and for those who think they are ready and have never seen the elephant, you won't need to pack much-you won't last that long against a professional army whether you went to gunsite or not.
 
To Tamara:

Here, I must disagree with you--at least in some aspects.

I fully agree that conscription should NOT be necessary--however, I also believe that it IS a necessity. Changing moral beliefs, moral directions, and a complete sea-change in the attitudes concerning patriotism, rights--and even education!--
ensure that if it were left to volunteerism, we would NOT have enough to serve.

Also, I know that registering for the draft at this time is mandatory. I also am sure that there are so many loopholes that will allow "certain" individuals to duck out of the draft if the time comes, that it makes Selective Service in its present form a joke.

And, why should some Senator's or Representative's son get a preferential assignment in the rear with the gear? Oh, heck no!! Let's get those boys out as mud puppies, string dummies, cannon cockers and rail apes. Let's get down and dirty in the bush--ALL of us--not just some of us.

Correia, I agree with you. However, due to the changes in levels of patriotism and moral discipline in this country, I do not think we would see as great influx of enlistees, even for a "just" cause--as you believe.

Oh, and by the way--for all concerned--I do NOT support this upcoming war with Iraq. I really don't know just HOW involved Iraq is with terrorism.

I think that George W. is kinda spoiling for a fight--unless he knows something that the American people don't know just yet. If this were the case, I sure hope he lets the cat out of the bag.

And, if we go to war, I believe firmly that George W. should be walking point on the first patrol in, with the rest of his Cabinet members walking slack. I WOULD put GEN Powell in as patrol leader--at least they would have the best of leadership. However, I wonder how fast they would be to put this Country at war if they had to go?
 
Why enlist when it was a given that they were going to send you a letter telling you when and where to report.
Because if you enlisted in WWII you could choose which branch of the armed forces you served in. If you didn't think you'd make a good infantryman, you could choose Air Force instead of the Marine Corp.
 
I think that if there hadn't been a draft then more people would have enlisted for WWII. Just a guess on my part since I wasn't alive then.
That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it.

During Vietnam, the draft itself drove enlistments, including volunteering for the draft. Enlisting gave you the choice of branch even though you had a longer active duty obligation. Volunteering for the draft gave you some advantages as far as training went, but one of my best friends did that but ended up leading LRRPs for the 1st Cav.

Enlisting in the Army gave you the option of choosing the training you wanted, but a lot of volunteers found that they didn't qualify for it on their test scores so they ended up alongside everybody else.

IMO, WWII was the same way. If not for the draft, enlistments would have not been anywhere near what was needed. That was the thinking after 1939, which resulted in the draft being instituted in 1940.

Americans operate under a well honed sense of "enlightened self interest." That's what makes the economy, and America itself, work. Volunteering to pull combat duty when the Huns are at the gate is one thing, and I share your opinion on that score. But the just cause of WWII wasn't that type of thing. Neither was Korea, nor Vietnam. "Get drafted or volunteer" is what's manned our combat forces prit near from the git go, because volunteering for combat in some miserable corner of the earth just isn't something that Americans have done in large numbers nor are they inclined to do so.
 
btw Correia, asking you whether you served or not was not a lead in for trying to slam you or anyone else on this board for not serving. Don't think for a minute that just because you weren't in the military that your opinion is slanted one way or another by it-lots of my vet friends think the draft was an abomination.
Especially a couple of ex drill sergeants who were up to their ears in draftees and a big shortage of instructors.
The stories they tell trying to train em up with more trainees per instructor and less time to do it in so's they could ship them off to the fight left them feeling none too good about it. They weren't as worried about the politics of the war, as about the quality of the soldiers they produced-namely, that they had enough training to have literally a fighting chance.

So, begging the question-how do you train up a large reserve force in case they are needed without conscription and before all hell breaks loose so you have time to teach them what they need to know?
 
So, begging the question-how do you train up a large reserve force in case they are needed without conscription and before all hell breaks loose so you have time to teach them what they need to know?
That's the question that's been faced time and time again, and the answer comes up "draft"!

We were woefully understaffed and underequipped before we entered WWII DESPITE having about every signal that we'd be in it you could imagine!

A "just cause" indication satisfactory to all those imaginary volunteers seldom appears before everything's vetted and ready.

We hire leaders to get and keep us ready for the perils the nation faces. Whatever it takes....
 
One poster somewhere above said that "conscription was slavery". Why? Are you too good to pay back Uncle Sam for some of the freedom you enjoy?

Excuse me, but "Uncle Sam" nor the US Government gives me the freedoms I enjoy. Those are inalienable rights that all people are born with.
 
Are you too good to pay back Uncle Sam for some of the freedom you enjoy?

How much involuntary servitude do you calculate I owe?:rolleyes:

a couple points:
1. I don't have to "pay back" anything. I already contribute a substantial portion of my income every year to Uncle. For the record, that is mostly involuntary too. The way I see it, Uncle should be paying me back for years and years of extortion on his part.
2. As somebody else already mentioned, Uncle doesn't give me those freedoms. They are my inalienable rights as a human being. All Uncle is required to do is stay out of the way; and he isn't even doing that.

You might want to soft-pedal this whole "are you too good" bit, as many of the members who are opposed to the draft did, in fact, serve as volunteers. That would include me.

So far, the only reasons for a draft I've seen given in this thread are "these kids today!" and "the ends justify the means," and I'm not buying either of them.
 
how do you train up a large reserve force in case they are needed without conscription and before all hell breaks loose so you have time to teach them what they need to know

One way might be to have folks going into service who already know how to shoot. Maybe an active and advertised Civilian Marksmanship Program, or just encouraging regular citizens to own and use weapons.................

whoops, sorry- wrong planet.:rolleyes:
 
All valid points that I don't have an answer for. Maybe I just make the mistake of assuming the best about my countrymen. All I know is that if we were asked to go, out of me and the people I'm around you would get a host of volunteers. Maybe it is because I hang out with gun people, and we aren't exactly normal to begin with.

For a core of well trained people, I think that if our culture was to cultivate a militia in the original sense of the word then we wouldn't have a problem. You would take land navigation and MOUT and other things like that in high school. Of course there is no chance in hell of that ever happening.

I just want to say that this is the most civil discussion we have ever had on the draft. :) Thank you.
 
http://washtimes.com/commentary/20030115-98184772.htm

Draft debate: Back to the 18th Century



Philip Gold

It happened more than 30 years ago, but I still recall the cold and absolute fury with which I received my draft notice. How dare they? I barely glanced at my "Greetings" before stuffing it back into the envelope and scrawling, on my finest Yale University stationery:
"I am returning this to you. I will never serve in the United States Army, so please stop wasting my time, your time, and the government's postage. Sincerely yours. P.S. I recently joined the Marines."
But that was then. This is post-then. And Democratic Congressman-for-Life Charlie Rangel wants to restore conscription, with "nonmilitary options" for those who don't feel like it. And already the debate — if such it can be called — has developed along predictable lines.
Militarily, the idea's nonsense. Limited-term conscription produces semiskilled, transient, expendable labor. In military terms, cannon fodder, adequate for Industrial Age mass warfare but utterly unsuited to our 21st-century needs. Eliding this fact, conscription's backers offer a hiphop of cliches about equality and burden-sharing, as though there could be equality between combat and other necessary but less extreme tasks, or between military service and tutoring disadvantaged youth or emptying bedpans.
Very well, then. Conscription, we are told, has to do with citizenship, usually defined as service and/or sacrifice, presumably leading to deeper patriotism and maturity. At its most extreme, advocates of compulsory national service desire a massive new federal bureaucracy to force the young to appreciate their country while performing all kinds of "socially desirable" services (en passant taking millions of jobs from those who need them most).
To the American Founders, this would be worse than nonsense. But it does raise two evocative questions regarding the meanings of citizenship then and now. First, is there any longer a connection between what the Founders knew as citizenship and what it means to us today? And second, does citizenship have any rational relationship to national defense?
The answers point to the possibility — no more, but no less — of a recovery of genuine citizenship in post-September 11, 2001, America.
To the Founders, citizenship meant far more than rights and liberties, although these obviously mattered greatly. It also meant more than the sullen discharge of externally imposed and distasteful duties. The Founders saw active citizenship as part of a fully human life. Defending the polity, along with voting, jury duty, discourse, and occasional officeholding, were things citizens did as normally as they attended to their private affairs. They objected to standing armies less from fear of military dictatorship than from a sense that professional militaries detached the citizen from one of the prime manifestations of citizenship.
But — and this is crucial — their understanding of defense was quite different from our pre-September 11 conceit. To the Founders, as to most of the world today, there was no clear break between individual self-defense, defense of family and community, and war. That's why they cherished the militia, with its multiple and overlapping law enforcement and military duties. That's also why they enshrined the individual's, not the state's, right to bear arms. War might be an occasional thing, but the citizen's obligation to protect and defend was constant.
Only in the 20th century did law enforcement become the virtual monopoly of the state, and war the private preserve of the federal government. And only in the 20th century did we presume that foreign and domestic threats could be compartmentalized, and that legal barriers had to be erected to keep our agencies of law enforcement and defense separate.
No more. Reality has brought us back to the Founders' world. But has it — can it — bring us back to the Founders' concept of what it means to be a citizen?
Yes. And perhaps the best way to begin the recovery of citizenship from its current rights-and-entitlements-encrusted passivity, is to reaffirm the Founders' understanding of defense as a continuum, with foreign war as only one aspect and the federal role as only one part. But what does this mean in post-September 11 practice? Nobody wants a nation of snitches and snoops; nobody wants to turn the population into a paramilitary horde. What to do, once you accept that to be a citizen means to be active in defense?
Very simply, you defend. For example, it should be lawful for every law-abiding woman and man in this country to bear and maintain arms for in extremis personal and communal defense, along with voluntary free training to make this new militia "well-regulated" (an 18th-century term meaning "proficient in marksmanship"). And is it not also a duty of citizenship to be prepared for the consequences of terrorist attack, in order to make yourself less of a burden on the system and to help others? Private emergency preparations, of the kind you would make for an earthquake or hurricane, ought to be considered acts of citizen defense. Why not require basic first aid and CPR training as part of teenage drivers' education, and periodic recertification when renewing the license?
The examples could multiply, but the point is clear. Defense is now, once again, something we all must tend to. But we don't need conscripts. We need citizens. And once we get a taste of active citizenship again, we might even find we like it the way the Founders did. And who knows where that might lead?

Philip Gold is a Seattle-based writer and author of "Evasions: The American way of Military Service."
 
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