Pepper Spray...?

[CGRifleman]

I know this is supposed to be a gun forum, but this seemed like a good place to seek answers.
I'm not a police officer, but I do have some limited experience in law enforcement. We carry pepper spray, and thankfully I've never had to use it, but I have doubts as to its functionality/practicality as tool of law enforcement. Having been pepper sprayed myself, I don't understand the concept behind using it as a "control technique". If anything it seems like it would make an uncontrollable subject even more agitated and more difficult to control, as well as risking splatter or smearing on yourself or other officers once contact is made. Furthermore, given the "proper" technique we were shown, I can't possibly foresee a situation in which the textbook application of pepper spray would be practical or safe.
Also I've heard something like 6 percent of all people are immune to pepper spray... I worked with someone like this, and when he got sprayed his comment was something like, "I've eaten things spicier than that." I don't like the idea of a 6% chance that my weapon will be completely ineffective.

I know there are plenty of cases in which pepper spray was used to apprehend a suspect, but IMHO it still seems the concept is flawed. Am I missing something?

 

[Fred Fuller]

I know this is supposed to be a gun forum

Not here, at least not exclusively. Nor is http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=13 .

I don't like the idea of a 6% chance that my weapon will be completely ineffective.

Which is why I carry pepper spray AND a gun (and two knives, a cell phone, a flashlight and impact tools as well).

 

[CGRifleman]

Which is why I carry pepper spray AND a gun (and two knives, a cell phone, a flashlight and impact tools as well).

We carry most of these things too, but if the spray is already in your hand, the transition to another weapon leaves you vulnerable, even if only for a split second. If the subject is close enough for me to pepper spray him, he's close enough to rush me if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The pepper spray I carry is in an ASP Street Defender, with a pound or so of keys on its key rings as well that seve as a flail/mace. One more impact tool (two, if you count its utility as a kubotan also), if all else fails, and it's usually already in hand crossing parking lots etc. http://www.defensedevices.com/asp-street-defender.html to see a picture, for anyone not familiar with it.

 

[CGRifleman]

That Street Defender looks awesome. Unfortunately we can only carry what is issued to us and we don't (and probably will never) have anything that cool.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Being a "useless civilian" (as my SF guys used to put it) does have some advantages...

 

[HOWARD J]

In Michigan CPL holders are not allowed to carry any type of spray ( mace-pepper,etc)
or a knife that could be used for defence.
They want you to shoot the guy not make him feel uncomfortable.

 

[ATLDave]

The now-ubiquitous video of the UC Davis protestors being sprayed with about a fire extinguisher's worth of pepper spray does not fill me with confidence as to its efficacy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4

 

[2WheelsGood]

In Michigan CPL holders are not allowed to carry any type of spray ( mace-pepper,etc)
or a knife that could be used for defence.
They want you to shoot the guy not make him feel uncomfortable.

Absolutely not true. Tasers and mace, you're not allowed. Pepper spray, absolutely you can. I carry a Kimber Pepper Blaster as well as a gun, a knife, and a flashlight.

 

[Princi]

Hmmm, I have a PO Box, and as you all know, you can't legally carry a gun into a Post Office unless you have a FFL.

Sometimes it gets late and rather than go to the Post Office unarmed after dark, I just wait until the next day.

Does anyone know if there are federal restrictions about carrying a pepper spray type device into a federal post office?

 

[Jeff White]

I am a police officer and I have used OC many times. Believe me it makes most subjects stop fighting and start trying to get the nasty stuff off of their faces.

I have used it on people who were high on meth and other drugs successfully. I have never seen it fail, but I know that it's possible, nothing works on everyone.

Yes secondary contamination is always an issue and it is one of the downsides of using it.

We have tasers now, but I still carry OC on my duty belt.

 

[mljdeckard]

There isn't a 100% chance your gun will be effective.

I THINK,that police don't carry sprays and electrical weapons for feasible defensive options. They carry them to be able to show that they escalated force appropriately before using deadly force to shield themselves from liability. I think that using these tools for compliance, rather than defensive use, is deplorable.

 

[USAF_Vet]

In Michigan CPL holders are not allowed to carry any type of spray ( mace-pepper,etc)
or a knife that could be used for defence.

Michigan has a lot of strange laws, but this isn't one of them. I know electrical devices like Tasers and stun guns are not allowed, CCW or not.

I could be mistaken (since I don't carry any sprays) but I've seen pepper sprays at my LGS with stickers on them advertising Michigan approved forumlas. I assume that means certain types of chemical deterrents are werboten, but certainly not all.

They want you to shoot the guy not make him feel uncomfortable.

this, quite frankly, is one of the dumbest things I've read in some time.

 

[tuj]

The old pepper spray used to have an alcohol-based carrier agent....spray them then hit them with a Taser....yikes....

http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...Using-Alcohol-Based-Pepper-Spray-With-Tasers/

 

[Jeff White]

I THINK,that police don't carry sprays and electrical weapons for feasible defensive options.

You think wrong. Both OC and the taser are feasible defensive options.

They carry them to be able to show that they escalated force appropriately before using deadly force to shield themselves from liability.

You obviously don't understand the force continuum. You may use whatever level of force is appropriate. There is no requirement to move from one level to another in any kind of order.

I think that using these tools for compliance, rather than defensive use, is deplorable.

This is not for discussion here, however if you would like to discuss it privately send me a PM.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I've seen OC and tasers work brilliantly and fail completely. They work more often than not. Most of the time they work spectacularly.

I'll tell you, you somewhat get acclimated to OC over time. Unless you are the luckiest guy on the beat, you've eaten your own spray or had rub off... of had to transport the guy who got more than his fair share and left half of it in the back of your cruiser... but you never get over it. It still sucks every single time.

 

[HOWARD J]

In Michigan you could carry 2% pepper spray & a knife under 3"
both usless as far as I am concerned.
They have just changed the law to 10% pepper spray---no change on knife.
2 % would make you uncomfortable.
If someone has a gun on me I am not going to spray him-- I will try to shoot him to stop him---pepper spray may get you shot.
Have fun

BTW--I have had a concealed weapon license over 30 years--
Not too good on keeping up on laws

 

[2WheelsGood]

In Michigan you could carry 2% pepper spray & a knife under 3"
both usless as far as I am concerned.

More misinformation about Michigan law. The law about knives, as screwy as it's worded, only limits to 3" for people "with intent to use the knife unlawfully against another."

From the FAQ on the State Police web site:

5. Is it illegal to have a knife with a blade over 3 inches in my possession?

MCL 750.226 No. Michigan law specifies that a person, with intent to use the knife unlawfully against another, shall not go armed with a knife having a blade over 3 inches in length.

The actual law:

750.226 Firearm or dangerous weapon; carrying with unlawful intent.
Sec. 226.

Carrying firearm or dangerous weapon with unlawful intent—Any person who, with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, goes armed with a pistol or other firearm or dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than 2,500 dollars.

Again, there is NO law against having a longer knife for law-abiding citizens.

 

[HOWARD J]

In MI don't ever get stopped by a cop for any reason & have him find a 4" or longer knife on your person----you may find that the laws suck.
Don't forget to explain to the cop that you did not intend to use that knife on another person.
Lots of luck

 

[2WheelsGood]

Um, no. It was a cop that told me that 3" rule is a myth. And what do you mean "you may find that the laws suck"? I just showed you what the law is. It shows it plain as day on the State Police web site.

If you're that worried about a rogue cop taking the law into his own hands, I'd be a heck of a lot more worried about having a gun than a knife.

 

[Jeff F]

Pepper spray or OC works, some brands better then others. The old CS in a can worked even better. I still have a couple of cans from back in the 80's and even though the experation date has long passed it still will drop someone to the ground. I wish it was still available here in the states.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I have used it in LEO work numerous times. I find it one of the handiest tools on my belt.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Having been pepper sprayed myself, I don't understand the concept behind using it as a "control technique". If anything it seems like it would make an uncontrollable subject even more agitated and more difficult to control,

It could, but they're doing so blindly and with diffculty breathing.

Also, the effectivess depends on what you got hit with. Some formulas are much more potent than others. We had a discharge of the "good stuff" in my search and rescue HQ once. It was awful. we couldn't go back in there for an hour.

Also I've heard something like 6 percent of all people are immune to pepper spray... I worked with someone like this, and when he got sprayed his comment was something like, "I've eaten things spicier than that." I don't like the idea of a 6% chance that my weapon will be completely ineffective.

Yes, some people are immune to capsaicin. Some animal species are completely immune (birds).

Most people, however, are very much affected.

I wouldn't want OC to be my only means of defense, but it's a good tool to have in your defense inventory.

 

[o Unforgiven o]

Some people are naturally immune from pepper spray, some have been sprayed so much they have developed a very high tolerance. That said the VAST majority of people will feel the effects in every aspect of it's burning goodness.

A good number of those people will still be able to fight back and some may even be driven to more so than the were before being sprayed. However they will still be doing so whilst;

Nearly Blind
Having Trouble Breathing
Sinuses Burning
Eyes Burning
Throat Burning
Skin Burning


But you're right, it probably is not worth carrying...

 

[USAF_Vet]

In Michigan you could carry 2% pepper spray & a knife under 3"
both usless as far as I am concerned.
They have just changed the law to 10% pepper spray---no change on knife.
2 % would make you uncomfortable.
If someone has a gun on me I am not going to spray him-- I will try to shoot him to stop him---pepper spray may get you shot.
Have fun

BTW--I have had a concealed weapon license over 30 years--
Not too good on keeping up on laws

Carrying concealed for that long and you DON'T keep up with the ever changing laws? Doesn't sound like a sound policy to me, unless, of course, your sarcasm doesn't translate over the internet.

I carry a 4" Benchmade folder from pants on to pants off and I have asked local, county and state law enforcement and also the state AG office. All of them have said pretty much the same thing on the 3" knife statute.

Then again, I've also heard of people getting busted for carrying fixed blades greater than 3" so who knows. But thankfully, it's not up to the cops to interpret the laws, but rather the prosecuting attorney and the judge. Getting arrested for something and being charged with it as a crime are two different ball games.

In any case, I've undergone chemical warfare training with CS and Air Force security forces training with OC, and neither one are very pleasant. I can say with certainty, I'd rather be gasses or sprayed over getting shot. I'd take a taser over either one though.