personal thoughts on open carry

[Havegunjoe]

MN is an OC state but I have seen very few people doing it. I do not but I am glad we are OC. I believe the idea behind the law was to not make a person a criminal just because say the wind inadvertently blows open their jacket exposing their firearm.

 

[Tropical Buzz]

In both this and the other thread in which I discussed my views (and biases) about open carry, some proponents of OC expressed their points of view in such an open and matter-of -fact way that I came away able to view OC as a very normal practice by normal people in certain (not all) contexts. They eroded the automatic presumption that anyone who could tolerate the high profile and attention of carrying openly in a non-rural public place was either a desperate attention seeker with a point to prove or someone with a serious self esteem issue seeking a perceived feeling of power, comfort or respect.

Then there are posts like this one - admittedly in the tiny minority - conjuring up all over again the image of someone carrying to prove something. Glaring around at other people, trying to make it clear that he's a bada$$ and he has a gun; aggressive, dangerous and not to be messed with. This is the unfair stereotype that casts a shadow over all gun owners whether we choose to OC or conceal. It's not about the beliefs (fed up with crime = good)- it's all about the attitude and how you display it.

i am pro open carry. I just wish a lot more people did it. i mean a lot. get everyone out to do it. Watch the crime go down as millions of americans take to the streets and let the world know we wont take SHIEET anymore. When Americans were Americans. Watch the gang crimes go down when mothers fathers grandfathers and grandmothers aunts and uncles take to the streets saying we are armed and wont take it anymore. Im telling you i will be the old school crazy one carrying the 1847 Colt Walker

 

[Defensory]

It's a personal decision. I wouldn't OC myself, but I'm not going to tell others they shouldn't.

Concealed carry gives you the element of surprise, which can be very important in many situations.

I don't think that advertising the fact you've got a gun is wise, especially in a bad neighborhood. Don't fool yourself into believing that the gangbangers, criminals and punks are going to cringe in fear just because you're packing. By OCing, you may very well be setting yourself up to get "hit".

It's not unusual for drug gangs to raid the drug houses of rival gangs, knowing full well that the people inside will be heavily armed and ready to shoot back. A lot of these gang members have a screw loose to begin with, so if they think they can make a "big score", they're not overly concerned about the danger involved. They have no respect for human life, including their own in many cases.

There have also been shootouts that have occurred right outside police stations. If gangbangers aren't very concerned about heavily armed rival gangs and a building full of cops, I doubt one person OCing will send them into paroxysms of fear.

To maintain your element of surprise at all times, you should carry concealed.

 

[Mainsail]

I don't think that advertising the fact you've got a ______ is wise, especially in a bad neighborhood.

Corvette
Attractive wife/girlfriend
Watch
Grand Theft Auto IV disk
Ipod
Underage children

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Mainsail
Corvette
Attractive wife/girlfriend
Watch
Grand Theft Auto IV disk
Ipod
Underage children

ANYBODY who drives their expensive sports car into a dangerous neighborhood with their hot wife/girlfriend and kids in tow, wearing a Rolex and an IPOD---is INDEED as big an IDIOT as somebody who open carries in a dangerous neighborhood!

Thanks for proving my point!

 

[Mainsail]

Actually the idiot is anyone who believes the bad people will willingly stay in the bad neighborhoods.

Isn't that why we all carry?

 

[Defensory]

Actually the idiot is anyone who believes the bad people will willingly stay in the bad neighborhoods.

I don't believe that bad people will willingly stay in bad neighborhoods, so I'm not an idiot.

That being said, your rant is utterly irrelevant to the thread topic.

It's far wiser to carry concealed. It doesn't matter whether you're in a bad or good neighborhood. It gives one the element of surprise.

If you open carry a lot, you're begging to get mugged. It's dangerously naive for people to think that they won't get robbed just because they're openly packing a gun on their side.

It's not uncommon for drug gangs to do armed invasions of drug houses run by rival gangs, knowing full well that the occupants will be heavily armed and prepared to shoot back. And we're not just talking about major cities like New York or Detroit. This is happening in a lot of places.

So if some of these gangbangers aren't afraid of a houseful of heavily armed rival gang members, they're darn sure not afraid of one guy packing a pistol on his side. They'll just wait for an opportune moment and beat him over the head, or shoot him and take it.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

So if some of these gangbangers aren't afraid of a houseful of heavily armed rival gang members, they're darn sure not afraid of one guy packing a pistol on his side. They'll just wait for an opportune moment and beat him over the head, or shoot him and take it.

doesn't this kind of prove the OC'ers point? By having an obvious weapon, you've reduced your potential threat pool from "every hood in the ghetto" to "only that small minority of hoods who don't give a darn about lethal violence being involved in their robberies?"

FWIW, I believe the vastly increased lethality of the "new" threat pool more than outweighs the fact that it's smaller--but the fact remains that it is a much smaller subset of criminals.

 

[Mainsail]

I don't believe that bad people will willingly stay in bad neighborhoods, so I'm not an idiot.

Ack! No, I wasn’t saying you were! My post was not meant to offend you but to show we all carry for pretty much the same reason, we differ only in method. Please don’t take it that way!

It's far wiser to carry concealed. It doesn't matter whether you're in a bad or good neighborhood. It gives one the element of surprise.

Do you have any empirical evidence of this? ANYTHING? The ‘element of surprise’ means you can only react to a criminally violent situation, thus you can only fight your way out instead of avoiding it completely. My hope is to never use the gun I’m carrying. I don’t want to surprise anyone. When people say this I have to wonder if they’re secretly hoping for a reason to ‘surprise’ someone.

Additionally, concealed carry is useless if the crime perpetrated against you doesn’t rise to the level of one that causes you to fear for your life, and if you draw or even shoot someone in such a circumstance you will be the one in legal hot water.

If you open carry a lot, you're begging to get mugged. It's dangerously naive for people to think that they won't get robbed just because they're openly packing a gun on their side.

Again, please cite some empirical evidence to back up your claim. I carry openly 90% of the time, in a city, and I am certainly not begging to be mugged. In fact, I believe the reason I wasn’t mugged in a local park recently was because I was carrying openly.

It's not uncommon for drug gangs to do armed invasions of drug houses run by rival gangs, knowing full well that the occupants will be heavily armed and prepared to shoot back.

Well, actually it is uncommon; in fact it’s very uncommon by any definition of the word. I will also point out that these gangbangers aren’t just walking by a house and decide to invade it on an impulse. The few times it does happen, a plan of some sort is thought out well in advance. Thus your argument is inapplicable to a citizen openly carrying.

It sounds like you don’t carry openly and I would be willing to bet you never have. I am not criticizing your choice of carry method but am criticizing your use of belief as fact. Every study of criminal behavior that I have ever read supports the simple fact that a criminal will avoid an armed person in favor of an unarmed one. I am not naive enough to believe it can never happen, but I think your chances of having a thug try to rob you when you are openly carrying a firearm are about as good as your chances of being struck by lightning while holding the winning PowerBall ticket in the air. They may be lazy, uneducated, opportunistic, and cowardly, but a criminal’s sense of self preservation is every bit as strong as yours.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by TheLastBoyScout
doesn't this kind of prove the OC'ers point? By having an obvious weapon, you've reduced your potential threat pool from "every hood in the ghetto" to "only that small minority of hoods who don't give a darn about lethal violence being involved in their robberies?"

It certainly does not prove their point. It proves only their weak reasoning, no offense intended.

You're improperly assuming that just because many gangbangers out there haven't done this sort of thing or something similar---that they must all be afraid to and will never do so. Sorry, but that's a faulty assumption on your part.

That's about as ludicrous as saying "The two World Trade Center attacks (1993 bombing and 9-11) are the only major attacks on U.S. soil involving Arab terrorists, and only involved a very small percentage of the total number of Arab terrorists, so there's no reason to worry about any other Arab terrorists."

Yeah, right!

Common sense tells me that if SOME gangbangers aren't even afraid of a houseful of armed thugs, then there are a LOT more armed gangbangers out there somewhere who darn sure aren't going to be afraid of one guy with a handgun on his side. Gangbangers and other criminals are engaged in thousands of armed robberies and a vast number of shootouts every year, knowing full well in many cases that their victims and rivals were armed.

I live in a pretty good sized city, so there are a lot of convenience store robberies here. In a number of them, the perps were fully aware in advance that the store clerk was armed, yet still went ahead with the robbery.

Where's that great fear of an armed victim that you and Mainsail speak of or imply?

In a town I used to live in, there was a grocery store that was robbed multiple times, even though they had a security guard and a 12-gauge shotgun that was prominently displayed in the security guard booth. Anyone walking in the door could see that shotgun plain as day. Yet the place was still robbed on multiple occasions.

Where's that great fear?

Armed drug dealers shoot other armed drug dealers in turf battles frequently. A few years ago in my city, a drug dealer pulled up beside the car of a competing drug dealer at a stoplight, and calmly shot him. When the police came, the victim was found to be heavily armed. It's safe to say that the perp knew beforehand that other drug dealers carry guns in their cars!

That great fear you and Mainsail are sure exists, sure didn't stop him from pulling up beside a guy he knew to be armed, and shooting him in the head.

 

[WayneConrad]

The answer is, without a controlled experiment, or the kind of careful disentangling of the data that economists try to do (think John Lott), you can't know what effect open carry has upon criminals based only upon anecdotal evidence.

For example:

If a criminal goes up to an armed person and shoots him, does that show that open carry does not dissuade criminals?

You don't know. Because you don't know how many crimes were also prevented by open carry. It takes more than anecdotal evidence to show you that. Even statistical evidence will easily lead us astray: This is the stuff economists and sociologists build entire careers upon (and have long arguments over).

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Mainsail:
Every study of criminal behavior that I have ever read supports the simple fact that a criminal will avoid an armed person in favor of an unarmed one....I think your chances of having a thug try to rob you when you are openly carrying a firearm are about as good as your chances of being struck by lightning while holding the winning PowerBall ticket in the air.

I regret to inform you that a number of armed gun shop owners/employees over the last several years, have been struck by lightning while holding winning PowerBall tickets in the air. I would strongly suggest that you promptly flush your alleged "studies" down the nearest toilet.

Documented cases of armed robberies at gun shops, perpetrated in broad daylight during operating hours. In virtually every case, the owners/employees were armed at the time of robbery:

Attempted armed robbery of armed Indianapolis gun dealer:
http://www.kressworks.com/Politics/Gun_Control/dgu/bciwa_Jul_1999.htm

Attempted armed robbery of Seattle gun shop, with armed employees and a uniformed policeman present:
http://www.snopes.com/crime/dumdum/gunshop.asp

Video footage of armed robbery at Virginia gun shop:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fab_1195132074

Armed robbery of San Bernardino gun shop, multiple armed employees forced to lay on ground:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=5363436

Armed robbers fire at armed Waco gun dealer:
http://www.kcentv.com/news/c-article.php?cid=1&nid=7570

Armed robbery of Riverside CA gun shop, several armed employees and customers forced to lay on ground:
http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cach...ry&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Armed employee of Mississippi gun shop killed by armed robbers:
http://theregulatorroom.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!B83E62ACFF1392A7!3848.entry

Philadelphia man gets 24 years for armed robbery of gun shop:
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080326/NEWS/80326035

Virginia man arrested for armed robbery and shooting of a Roanoke gun/pawn dealer, also a suspect in Salem gun store armed robbery:
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/143120

 

[JesseL]

Yes; criminals rob armed rival gangs, armored cars, gun shops, banks with armed guards, etc.

Yet I've heard exactly one case of an openly armed private citizen being robbed on the street (and I have a few doubts about the veracity of that account).

What do the first group have in common that Regular Joes with unconcealed sidearms don't? Lots of cash and/or valuables. The risk/reward ratio is completely different from a guy on the street with a pistol.

 

[Defensory]

"Yet I've heard exactly one case of an openly armed private citizen being robbed on the street (and I have a few doubts about the veracity of that account)."---JesseL

Yes, and Mainsail has always "heard" and believed that virtually everybody openly packing a gun has no fear of being robbed. However, I've proven with documented evidence that his PERCEPTION was faulty. As is yours.

Since you haven't been in (nor possibly can be in) every county, city and town in the country, and have no access to their law enforcement records, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

I live in one of the larger cities in the country (within the top 30), where it is perfectly legal to carry openly. My job for years took me out into the public on a daily basis. I live near a major regional shopping mall, major hospital, numerous strip malls etc. I've traveled to places like Dallas, Indianapolis, Memphis, Jackson, Tampa, Orlando, Atlanta, Birmingham and a host of other cities.

Having been in all those places and many more---since 1984 I've seen a grand total of ONE person open carrying. It's completely safe to say that not even one tenth of one percent of Americans open carry handguns. Since so incredibly few people actually open carry, it's not surprising why you don't often hear of an OCer being robbed. Gee, ya reckon it could be because there aren't too many to begin with?!

"What do the first group have in common that Regular Joes with unconcealed sidearms don't? Lots of cash and/or valuables. The risk/reward ratio is completely different from a guy on the street with a pistol."---JesseL

Anybody so loose in the head that they'll perpetrate an armed robbery of a heavily armed drug house, gun shop, bank etc.---darn sure isn't going to be giving any thought to "risk/reward ratios".

There are two things that your typical gangbangers value more than anything---drugs and guns. Drugs can make them a whole lot of money, and they know they can easily get four figures on the street for that gun they see on your side.

It's true that gangbangers aren't going to try and rob anybody and everybody they see, especially if those people are smart enough not to be flashing their wallet, cash, expensive watches, jewelry etc.

Any person with common sense wouldn't flash even a single hundred dollar bill around the wrong people in the wrong neighborhood---people have been robbed and killed for less. So why on earth would they go into a bad neighborhood advertising the fact that they've got a handgun, that a criminal could sell on the street for four figures---which is a heckuva lot more than a hundred dollars.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

I myself am not a thug, and I don't know about the rest of you, but if I had to choose between accosting a sheep with cud-chewing teeth and one that was walking down the street with a set of fangs protruding from its mouth, and the criterion were simply "an easy mark," I think the choice would be clear.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[JesseL]

I've traveled to places like Dallas, Indianapolis, Memphis, Jackson, Tampa, Orlando, Atlanta, Birmingham and a host of other cities.

• Dallas - open carry prohibited
• Indianapolis - open carry only legal with a carry license
• Memphis - open carry only legal with a carry license
• Jackson - open carry only legal with a carry license
• Tampa - open carry prohibited
• Orlando - open carry prohibited
• Atlanta - open carry only legal with a carry license
• Birmingham - open carry legal but not in vehicles

I'm going to say that your experience isn't as relevant as you think.

So why on earth would they go into a bad neighborhood advertising the fact that they've got a handgun, that a criminal could sell on the street for four figures---which is a heckuva lot more than a hundred dollars.

I don't go into bad neighborhoods. I don't have any kind of reason to, and plenty of reasons not to.

People have been open carrying here in Arizona for as long as there have been guns for people to have here and in all that time we've had people just as bad as any of todays junkies and gang bangers. None of the imagined doomsday scenarios have ever come to pass. You can disagree, but I put more faith in a century or two's worth of anecdotal evidence than I do in anyone's speculations.

I'm fine with people carrying their guns however they like, but the folks who seem most vehemently opposed to open carry seem to be consistently working from a point-of-view that may be valid for their experience, but is far from universal.

 

[Mainsail]

I regret to inform you that a number of armed gun shop owners/employees over the last several years, have been struck by lightning while holding winning PowerBall tickets in the air.

Sigh. Your rational is faulty. Not one of the incidents you provided was an unplanned spontaneous robbery. I am not a gunshop and I don’t work at one. There is a HUGE difference between a fixed business and an unpredictable me walking down to the market for a dozen eggs.

 

[Australian Shooter]

Open carry and concealed carry have one thing in common. They are both better than no-carry.

 

[JesseL]

Is it a bad idea to have a sign like this in your front yard?

Will it just entice bad guys by giving them cause to think you have valuables in your home worth protecting?

Or, will it show that this house won't be so easy to rob and encourage thieves to look for lower hanging fruit?

I'm convinced that it does far more good than harm to appear as well defended as possible. Most aggressors choose victims that look like victims.

 

[Markbo]

beretta92D - was this cleanup place along the NH/MA border or was it IN Massachusetts? What is a GFW? This fellow you had the short conversation with... what do you think his attitude was? I mean was he genuinely curious or do you think he was goading you or was he shocked and fearful??? I can't tell from the short quotes you know... just curious.

Until we get OC in Texas I believe I will have no personal position of whether I will or won't other than to say if you can and if you want - do it! Who is ANYONE that is not you to tell you it is a bad idea?

Perspective... if you don't consider the other guys perspective you are not considering his statements clearly.

 

[jimbob86]

Thoughts on OC.....

Back in the early 1900's, you can bet that people thought it was cool to drive around their brand new horseless carriages at a mind-blowing (for machinery) 15MPH, even though people were a little startled by them at first. Now, people don't bat an eye when a car passes by at 70 MPH.

I don't think everyone who drives around a Ford Model T or A is necessarily an ego freak, even though heads spin when they drive by, and even though they might be happy to see so many people so interested. Most vehicle restorers I've met are very humble and more than happy to give you a ride or talk with you about their vehicles. I am glad that some people have the hobby of restoring and preserving pieces of history. I feel the same way about rights.

I OC at times because I see it as a great educational tool. People see someone who is not in uniform carrying a firearm, and miraculously (to them) they don't get shot out of the blue. Create such neutral (or positive) associations, and you've just made a the world a more firearm-friendly place.

The first comment I ever received when open carrying was from a store clerk, who said, "Coming back from a little shooting this morning?" I laughed and said, "Nope." "Are you an officer?" "No," [and to reassure him, in case he was uneasy] "it's legal." He then asked me what kind of pistol it was, where the nearest places to shoot were, and what you needed to be able to shoot there.

That's why I OC.

-Sans Authoritas
__________________
The right to defend oneself and one's family with the best means in existence is not an American right, nor is it a right bestowed by any document written by men. It cannot be "lost," "taken away" or "destroyed" by any man or group of men. That is because the right to self-defense with the best means in existence is a right given by God to protect our own lives, which he also gave us.

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Last edited by Sans Authoritas : April 29th, 2008 at 08:18 AM.

+1. Excellent Post.

I seems to me that this thread has devolved into CC "vs" (as in "against")OC, which, IMO, is a Bad Thing. Rather, I would prefer it be CC "and" (as in "with") OC...... this violates the 11th Commandment: "Thou shalt not throw bricks at personnel on OUR side of the barricade." We have enough folks on the other side, who wish to take ALL your guns, concealed, open, in your car, in your gun safe, the ones buried in your back yard,...... even those in your wildest dreams. They have collectively decided that guns are icky and should not exist, and your personal safety and Liberty don't mean beans compared to how they (the collective) feel about the icky guns.

I originally became interested in Concealed Carry after finding out that as our state law read, I could become an instant felon if ANY part of an openly carried firearm were covered by a shirt, coat, or whatever, including my body- a strongside holster worn while sitting in the driver's seat of a vehichle, for example ( don't laugh, it HAS happened!), at THE DISCRETION OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER AT THE SCENE. If I ran into a LEO that did not take a shine to me, and I was carrying, at the very least, I was in for a lot of expensive legal hassles.

After CC became legal here in Nebraska and I got my CHP, I looked into the issue a lot more. CC offers the element of suprise, so tactically is better. It also acts as a Force Multiplier- the BGs don't know who is armed, and who is not........ BUT........ there are some local municipalities that have local ordinances against CCW (No Pre-emption by State Law), so OC is the only option there. While OC'ingin those places I have had some of the encounters ArtEatman and SansAuthoritas alluded to- "Are you a Police Officer?!?!?!" People (including some LEOs!) don't realize OC is a RIGHT, spelled out EXPLICITLY in Art. I, sec. 1 (as in Right up Front and Center!) of the Nebraska State Constitution. These sheep are not even aware of their rights, and "a Right not excercised, like a muscle, will atrophy with disuse"....... so I have politely imparted the facts to them. Education is the key. I (and several friends of mine) have certainly changed some minds on the issue. Through our efforts, we have even managed to get the stupid "No CCW" ordinance in the next burg changed, over the objections of the decidedly anti-gun Mayor.

 

[jimbob86]

Two Points, Defensory.....

I regret to inform you that a number of armed gun shop owners/employees over the last several years, have been struck by lightning while holding winning PowerBall tickets in the air. I would strongly suggest that you promptly flush your alleged "studies" down the nearest toilet.

Documented cases of armed robberies at gun shops, perpetrated in broad daylight during operating hours. In virtually every case, the owners/employees were armed at the time of robbery:

Attempted armed robbery of armed Indianapolis gun dealer:
http://www.kressworks.com/Politics/G...a_Jul_1999.htm

Attempted armed robbery of Seattle gun shop, with armed employees and a uniformed policeman present:
http://www.snopes.com/crime/dumdum/gunshop.asp

Video footage of armed robbery at Virginia gun shop:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fab_1195132074

Armed robbery of San Bernardino gun shop, multiple armed employees forced to lay on ground:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...cal&id=5363436

Armed robbers fire at armed Waco gun dealer:
http://www.kcentv.com/news/c-article.php?cid=1&nid=7570

Armed robbery of Riverside CA gun shop, several armed employees and customers forced to lay on ground:
http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Armed employee of Mississippi gun shop killed by armed robbers:
http://theregulatorroom.spaces.live....2A7!3848.entry

Philadelphia man gets 24 years for armed robbery of gun shop:
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/p.../NEWS/80326035

Virginia man arrested for armed robbery and shooting of a Roanoke gun/pawn dealer, also a suspect in Salem gun store armed robbery:
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/143120

1)To steal a line from KdT, "The plural of Anecdote is not Data." Some of those links are nearly a decade old. Just because something has happened does not mean it is more or less likely to happen, only that it is possible. To figure the likelyhood, you'd have to have a control to compare it to- say.... all robberies since 1999 (your oldest link).

2)Do you REALLY believe those gunshops would not have been robbed if the staff was NOT armed?

 

[jimbob86]

Open carry and concealed carry have one thing in common. They are both better than no-carry.
__________________
"Paulatim (Little by little)"
---Motto of the Royal Australian Army Medical Corps---

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Last edited by Australian Shooter : Today at 12:54 AM.

+1. And if we don't excercise our rights, that is what we shall have: No Carry.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

Every hobby I have seems to have opponents:

-Spearfishing has those who want to close waters to spearfishing;
-Hunting has the obvious tree huggers who don't want me to hurt Bambie;
-4wheeling has the folks who want to close lands to trucks because we kill endangered grass species;
-Offshore fishing has the "save the ocean" types who want to see all fishing stopped;
-Shooting and self-defense (hardly a "hobby") has the anti's

Another common thread I see in all of these hobbies and their fight to remain legal are rifts within. They do not help anyone except the opponents.

-Spearfishermen argue about the morality of taking fish using SCUBA vs breath-hold.
-Hunters argue over whether running dogs is moral.
-Off-roaders divide into camps aligning themselves along the lines of "hard-core" and "guys who just stay on the trails, take the easy way"
-Recreational offshore fishermen (myself) tend to want restrictions placed on commercial fishermen and vice versa.
-Some "2a" folks seem to think open carry is the devil and a few are on the other side of the coin calling on everyone to open carry.

Do you really think that divisions like this help or hurt your cause overall?

Just my thoughts.



As an aside: I open carry more than I carry concealed. It's more comfortable, it's legal and I like it. Feel free to disagree...I certainly disagree with you (Original Poster).

 

[AlaskaErik]

I plan on open carrying this summer, but only when I'm in a rural environment. I've got a Galco holster with thumbstrap retention on order for my XD-45. I also have a matching two mag pouch on the same order. That'll give me 40 rounds of .45 ACP on my person. Alaska summers tend to be pretty warm (60's, occasionally into the low 70's), so I don't want to try and conceal anything as big as the XD.