Pet Peeve #45

[TimboKhan]

Recently, while perusing a different thread I stumbled onto this little statement about a particular gun that a guy was having some serious reliability issues with...

Try some high quality ammo, [name withheld] are high quality guns designed with minimal tolerences.

Now, I am not slamming the cat that wrote this because it is an accurate statement, and I purposely deleted the gun name because its irrelevant to the point, which is that this really irritates me. For my money, I want my guns to be reliable with whatever crap I happen to feed them, and every one of my pistols to date fulfills that requirement. I basically just feel that building a gun so tight that it's finicky makes it a iffy choice at best.

My reasons for this are simple. I don't have tons of money for ammo, so for practice and fun, I buy whatever brand is cheapest at the store at the time. For my 9mm's, for instance, right now I have Wolf, CCI, WWB and American Eagle in my ammo bag. From experience, I know that barring it just being bad ammo, my guns will eat all of this just fine. I also have hydra-shoks for carry, and I shoot those judiciously for cost reasons, although I do shoot them in order to satisfy the "shoot what you carry" rule.

Further, I don't necessarily think that minimal tolerances = quality. I bet I will get some flack about saying this, but I would rather have an old 1911 that rattles than a tight one any day of the week. Perhaps it is an extreme concern, but what happens if S does HTF? Perhaps I will not be able to clean my gun immediatly, or perhaps It will be subjected to things like mud, water and muddy water? What good do tight tolerances that lock up at the slightest hint of dirt do me then? I guess it just boils down to the fact that I know that I might not be in a typical or controllable situation when I need it most, and I want to know that my guns will be able to roll with the punches. That means that if I am hip-deep in muddy flood water and all I have on hand is 3 hollowpoints and 11 FMJ's, the gun will go boom 14 times.

Sigh. Had to get it off my chest!

 

[Dr. Dickie]

There is always a trade-off (at least with the 1911--and dang near every autoloader made in the last 100 years is close to a 1911 in basic design) between tightness of the fit (barrel to collet, slide to frame, hood to slide, etc.) and the accuracy of the pistol.
Generally, very generally, the tighter the pistol the more accurate (has be tight in the right spots), but the tighter the pistol the more easily it jams and can be fouled by dirt (i.e. reliability). A 1911 can be accurate and reliable, and generally reliability starts going away when you are trying to tweak out the last 5% of accuracy. For me, I am like you. I want something that goes bang when I pull the trigger--course I would like it hit what I point at; however, I am not going to go nuts trying to make it a tack driver at 50 yards off a ransom rest.
But, I do not shoot bullseye. I can see someone that shoots bullseye needing a very accurate pistol.
For me, when I can out shoot a pistol, it is time for a new pistol.
That hasn't happened yet, but I am trying
Course, on the internet, everyone seems to shoot 1" groups at 50 yards offhand

 

[Manedwolf]

IMO, overly-finicky high-priced guns are like those expensive little chihuaha dogs in sweaters that get pneumonia and expire if a draft blows on them.

To my mind, the best gun is one that digests near anything and puts it as close to where you aim as is possible.

 

[taliv]

that's why "they" still make more than one type of gun. for my part, i don't understand why people shoot crappy ammo, so i don't understand why it's a big deal to need a gun that will eat crappy ammo.

 

[1911Tuner]

Tight

Note that a rattle-loose pistol doesn't guarantee reliability, and a tight, rattle-free pistol doesn't automatically mean that it'll puke unless fired with top-end ammo. In fact...with the 1911 in particular...you can reach a point in looseness that reliability goes south.

I've too often found that one primary reason for issues with feed and return to battery in the 1911 platform is simply that the chambers are too small and/or tapered, and this has been noted more with high-end barrels than with
barrels that come in off-the-rack/Ordnance-spec guns. I suspect that this is mainly because in the barrels that require fitting, that the maker assumes that the smith will finish ream the chambers in order to set the final headspace...with the undersized/tapered condition being rectified in the process. Recently, I've been using Kart's excellent barrels...both the Easy-Fit and the "Hard-Fit" variety, and I have yet to drop a straight finishing reamer into one of their chambers without bringing out chips. Can't remember how many that I've seen that wouldn't run, suddenly transformed into the ballistic equivalent of Energizer Rabbits with nothing more than finish reaming the chambers. A three-minute task.

Only about a month ago, a THR member brought a pistol to me that had a fitted barrel. The chamber was under minimum specs, both in diameter and depth to the shoulder...and had so much taper and such a short throat,(leade, not the barrel's feed ramp) that it wouldn't go to battery on a standard .898 GO gauge without a little help. A few turns with a reamer...by hand...and a couple other little adjustments turned the gun around. What once wouldn't go through a full magazine without a stoppage now went through 500 rounds ...300 of those in one day, fired hot...without missing a beat...and this without cleaning or oiling. The gun is what I would call tight...though not as tight as a full match-tuned gun...but without rattle and very slick. Maybe .003 inch play in the slide, and a tight in-battery fit on the barrel and bushing. A very nicely-built gun that only needed a little attention to detail to make it run.

So..."Loose as a Goose" can just as easily work against you as "Tight as a Tick". Those wide clearances let bigger pieces of dirt in, and things don't track straight as the gun cycles. There's a happy medium in all things.

Cheers!

 

[TimboKhan]

i don't understand why people shoot crappy ammo, so i don't understand why it's a big deal to need a gun that will eat crappy ammo

When the meteors begin raining space-death on us and society collapses into anarchy, you will no longer have access to your high-quality ammo. Thats why its a big deal, my friend.

 

[steelhead]

I agree that any firearm that is marketed for self defense/combat should be able to chamber, fire, and function with any SAMMI spec ammo - regardless of price. I've seen Magtech ammo cause problems, in striker fired designs (specifically in a Glock and Taurus), because of hard primers. Why not improve the design to make sure ignition will happen even with a hard primer?

Some companies might benefit from a little reverse engineering of the Makarov . It has eaten everything from Hornady XTP's, Cor-bon's, Wolf, American Eagle, etc., etc..... and never failed to fire or experience a jam. Plus it is quite accurate.

 

[shooter503]

There is always a trade-off (at least with the 1911--and dang near every autoloader made in the last 100 years is close to a 1911 in basic design) between tightness of the fit (barrel to collet, slide to frame, hood to slide, etc.) and the accuracy of the pistol.

True that many pistols follow the basic 1911 design but there are a number of pistols using "fixed" barrels. I suppose these could be called the "Walther Style". With this system the critical barrel bushing etc. of the "1911 Style" are not required. I find that pistols using the Walther System are both more accurate and more reliable than the 1911 style. Both designs can be made to shoot well but the fixed barrel style has an inherent advantage. This advantage is most noticeable in the "as issued" combat version of the pistol. The prime example of this system is the Walther P38. I cannot remember ever having a malfunction with a P38 using ammunition that was designed for the pistol.

 

[1911Tuner]

Accurate and Reliable

Shooter wrote:

>I find that pistols using the Walther System are both more accurate and more reliable than the 1911 style.<
**************

You just haven't had a good 1911 in your hands. If the gun is correctly and properly within-spec, and used with good magazines...it'll run your Walthers into the ground. And, I don't necessarily mean hand-built and/or specially tuned pistols. I'm talkin' about unaltered off the rack, ordnance guns that are built to print spec. Sadly...so few are these days.

 

[torpid]

I personally prefer guns that will either happily or grudgingly shoot whatever ammo I choose feed it. I'll spend the cash on higher quality ammo for serious work, but I won't tolerate a finicky stubborn mule as a "go to" gun, no matter how fine its pedigree.

When 9 out of 10 guns will shoot low-end ammo just fine, the owner of the "choker" will often slam the cheap ammo as the problem (and occasionally those less "discerning" guns) for somehow being inferior.

I sometimes find the same thing with owners of high priced race pistols who badmouth inexpensive "POS" workhorse guns as junk, while almost proudly gushing that their DOA out of the box $1k+ gun just got back from "fine tuning" from the master gunsmiths of glorious Company X (because these kinds of things are to be expected from thoroughbreds) and how they can't wait to shoot it now that it's been made even better!

 

[taliv]

When the meteors begin raining space-death on us and society collapses into anarchy, you will no longer have access to your high-quality ammo. Thats why its a big deal, my friend.

i make my own high-quality ammo, and when that happens, i'll be looking forward to making bullets out of meteors and raining my own space-death

 

[Phil DeGraves]

The Walther P38 is NOT a fixed barrel. Fixed barrels in relatively high powered cartridges (9mm Luger and up) are found in the Astra 600, Steyr GB, H&K P7 and P9 and gas operated systems. Pretty much everything else will be a short recoil locked breech of which there are about 3 common systems: "tilting barrel" found on Browning designs (1911) and all Browning derivatives; "straight line prop-up" (Walthers P38 and P5, Beretta 92 and derivatives, Lahti, Mauser Broomhandle); "rotary" (MAB P15, Beretta 8000); and "Toggle Lock" found exclusively on the Luger P08.
Notice that the only manufacturer that produces a short recoil locked breech 45 caliber in anything other than a Browning tilting barrel is Taurus with their PB 92 knock off in .45. Even Beretta went to a different system in a .45. And Taurus went the tilting barrel route with their newer pistols.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

I won't put junk ammo through my guns specifically "Wolf". I have no problem with Federal American Eagle or Winchester white box low cost ammo. But then, I won't put 67 octane gasoline in my car either. Is it junk because it won't run on kerosene when the meteors start falling? I don't think so!

 

[steelhead]

I won't put junk ammo through my guns specifically "Wolf". I have no problem with Federal American Eagle or Winchester white box low cost ammo. But then, I won't put 67 octane gasoline in my car either. Is it junk because it won't run on kerosene when the meteors start falling? I don't think so!

Good for you! No one said you had to use low cost ammo. The topic was about having a firearm that is reliable enough to handle a wide variety of ammo. If it can handle the low cost stuff - then it should be all the more reliable with the "high end" fodder.

To use your car example:

It might not be junk but it certainly wouldn't be a good choice if all it could run on was 97. Wouldn't you rather have a vehicle that could tolerate and function on a range of octanes, watered down, and dirty gas if that is all you could find? Or do you prefer sitting on the side of the road while everyone else is driving away from the meteors .

 

[Phil DeGraves]

My guns will run with the Wolf ammo. I just prefer not to use it because it is junk. The laquered cases begin to stick when the gun gets hot. The bullets don't perform well and they are inconsistently loaded. Why would anyone shoot ammo that performs this way?

 

[Phil DeGraves]

But, to be objective, all it took was one time. I haven't tried it since. If it works for you, then go for it. I'm confident that the reason it gave me problems was because of the ammo, not because the gun is finicky.

 

[arthurcw]

My SKS loves Wolf. She can't get enough. So I'm glad no one else will be unsing it. Leaves more for me.

Seriously though... I do tolerate some finickiness in some of my guns depending on the gun. Fun guns and niche guns are allowed to have some picky attitudes. We have a .22 conversion kit for a gun and I expect (and get) some 'tude from it with cheaper ammo. I also expect it from my pocket and deep carry guns. These are not zombie guns so I deal with it.

Now on Zombie guns... they better feed ANYTHING that I can get my hands on.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

But that's why we have more than one gun! Right?

 

[1911Tuner]

Woof

Concur with Phil. I don't even allow Wolf near my range beaters. The stuff is hard on extractors in most 1911s...and no...it's not because of the steel cases. Compare the extractor grooves on Wolf and about any other brand.
Unless they've started making the grooves to spec recently, if you'll just study on it for a few minutes, it'll be clear.

Clew: The case is slammed backward into the breechface under pressure.

 

[TimboKhan]

well, for me wolf has always worked just peachy. It's actually my preferred ammo for my P90, and thats just because it works and my gun seems to like it. I dunno, a lot of guys cast aspersions on it, and in truth it does seem to run a little dirtier than other ammo, but I have just never had a problem with it. I have, on the other hand, had a problem with WWB in my .45, though never my 9mm's. I am convinced at this point it was just a bad batch of ammo, since later sessions with WWB failed to produce the same level of craptacular performance that the first session had. I also ran some Cor-Bon +P through my .45. Worked like a champ, but I just think it's hard on my gun, so I choose not to use it. I think some of you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I wasn't so much making the case that cheap ammo is better or that you should use it so much as I just personally demand that my guns eat whatever I feed it, be it soylent green ammo or Kobe beef ammo. Thats all. Also, for the record, it was not a 1911 that the guy was talking about that got me started on this thread, it was actually a Kahr. Now, I must go prepare for the imminent meteor assault. Good day.

 

[JohnBT]

"When the meteors begin raining space-death on us and society collapses into anarchy, you will no longer have access to your high-quality ammo."

I won't be able to get to the cases of it under my bed? If I take a direct hit I figure I'm done for anyway.

I'm forced to conclude that if you'd quit buying your ammo one box at a time you wouldn't be so worried about this.

John

 

[shooter503]

Phil,

A Walther P38 barrel is fixed to the frame. It does not move during the operation of the firearm. The benefits are no need to mess with tolerences on bushings etc.

"Fixed" as in "does not move". Which part of "fixed" do you not understand?

 

[1911Tuner]

P-38

Shooter wrote:

>>A Walther P38 barrel is fixed to the frame. It does not move during the operation of the firearm. The benefits are no need to mess with tolerences on bushings etc.

"Fixed" as in "does not move". Which part of "fixed" do you not understand?<<
*************

Uh...Might wanna check that again, Shooter. The barrel on a P-38 isn't fixed to the frame, and it most assuredly moves during the function. It's a recoil-operated, locked-breech pistol, after all. Push on the muzzle and watch the slide and barrel move backward together.

Cheers!

 

[steelhead]

Push on the muzzle and watch the slide and barrel move backward together.

Ahhhh, that is just an optical illusion. Kinda like when you take a pencil and wobble it back and forth real quick. It looks like it's bending but it really isn't......

 

[Geronimo45]

May be getting mixed up about the PPK vs P38. PPK has a fixed barrel, and it's blowback... do blowbacks ever break, by the way?