Phoenix C-Store at night.

[Kleanbore]

The point of this thread is...

...not immediately clear to me.

An account of some kind of a dispute in a parking lot, some debate about Phoenix, complaints about a lack of respect among some people, snide comments back and forth, and some unacceptable phonetic imitations.

Doesn't seem to be going anywhere worthwhile.

We'll leave it open for now, in case something constructive comes in.

 

[AZ Lawman]

Maybe THESE points can be gleaned from it....

I think several things might have come to light here:

1. Regardless of how young and tough you might think you are: Old guys didn't get to be old by not being prepared like a boy scout. = Be careful who you mess with.

2. Don't be a reciprocal jerk. Don't buy into the nonsense of the young punk, and show how tough you are by starting to bandy words with a moron. Ignore vigiliantly....(go about your bidnezz while keeping an eye on them). = Don't let your guard down so as not to make yourself more vulnerable.

3. Be polite. What can it hurt? Extend that politeness until it is no longer a tenable position. = Don't start a peeing contest, it can't end well.

4. Make sure you have your gun when you need it. Don't have to..."Go gets my gat." = Be prepared.

And oh yeah....stay out of central Phoenix after 10:00pm. I much prefer coyotes howling and crickiets...cricketing...to loud rap music and traffic.

And again.....So possibly you have noticed that at no time during the initial contact with the subject did Dave or I "puff up" back at them and start with insults or "I am tougher than you punks" behavior. I remained calm, polite, and finished my business as quickly as possible while remaining watchful.

It was ONLY at the last moment when threats began, and it was time to leave, did I/we get firm, and let them know in no uncertain terms that WE would not be victims. No insults, no blah, blah. So that would be the point. No tacticool wannabe warrior sheepdog nonsense or posturing.

Get the job done, don't let your guard down, pe prepared with the means to get yourself out when it is time to go, and get gone. Period.

I thought that was pretty clear.

 

[armoredman]

I deal with the same types of "individuals" behind the wire, and they are VERY big when they vastly outnumber the opposition. Equalize the numbers, and they fade, as they do not wish to be hurt. Many have been shot, and do NOT fear the gun displayed, they fear the eyes/face that say "I will defend myself even if I have to use deadly force to do it". I can see this entire scenario, sounds very much like what to expect from this type of "person".

 

[bikerdoc]

they fear the eyes/face that say "I will defend myself

Thats the take home lesson.

Mindset, situational awareness, command presence, communicating unwillingness to be a victim, call it what you want, It applies accross the board.
Being polite and firm, and not being a reciprocal jerk are also good points.

Me, I like avoidance whenever possible.

 

[scaatylobo]

Push comes to shove You stated

You stated==


Really? I mean really? That I told him I couldn't start the truck right then, and that it would just be a couple of minutes in a polite manner, rather than as you suggest, telling him in what would be considered a more terse and confrontational manner to go ahead and use it? THAT is the straw you are holding onto?

That is the tiny little straw you are grasping? Let's pick this apart then iffin' y'onto....

Numero uno: DAVE'S truck...not mine. I parked MY truck behind Dave's, which was further yet from the air pump...let's say a 2008 Dodge Extended Cab length PLUS a few feet. I had nothing to do with either the breaking, parking, positioning or general disposition of the truck....I was merely the pal he called to come help him out. My job was bringing parts and helping repair. As an aside...Dave's truck was most certainly parked far enough away from the air pump that a mostly blind granny with crappy depth perception, night blindness, AND a 1972 Buick 225 could have sailed in there with no problem. The guy in the Cutlass was just a jerk showing off to his pals at the expense of a middle aged guy who he thought was alone and could be intimidated by a tough guy hood rat.

As posted...Dave's truck was parked CLOSE TO BUT NOT BLOCKING the air pump. Did you not read that in the original post? Have you simply chosen to ignore it to start a flame thread? I am sure Dave, being the decorated soldier and man of great integrity that I know him to be hatched an evil plan to inconvenience someone that night by having his truck go down. That dastardly Dave strikes again! As mentioned I could have very easily pulled my 3/4 ton quad cab LONG BED right up to the air pump and had plenty of room....either before or after the half blind granny in her Buick did her air pump business. The jerk in the Cutlass had room to spare.

Had he, at any time, ASKED me to move even though he had PLENTY of room, I probably would have stopped work, had Dave crawl out from under the truck where he was dealing with coolant that was probably still warm to hot, and pushed the truck back just avoid the nonsense. I probably would have even dumped a buck in quarters into the machine just to avoid more nonsense or his imagined sense of being "dissed". This guy was no more or no less than a jerk LOOKING to start something with whomever, where nothing existed. If it hadn't been me, he would have found someone else that night to show his butt to. I know the type well enough to know that no matter what I did, it would have been taken the wrong way or as weakness to be further exploited in his quest to feel like a tough guy so he and his friends could add a notch to their tough guy belts.

So I really don't understand what your problem is. You smell a rat or something fishy? Really? Maybe you need air freshener by your computer or something. I hear Air Wick makes a nice piney scent.

And I see that you are SPOT on as if you are too polite,that is taken as weakness by street punks.

I was LEO too ,and the ONLY thing respected on da street is STRENGTH.

Not the look of a target or weakness.

Backing down is a sign of weakness and likely to bring on a MUCH stronger response.

This is a sad reality,but a reality none the less.

Failure to understand this has cost many their life or damage that is not recoverd from.

BUT,you need to have the ability to back up your mouth/stance.

You apparently did,good outcome.

 

[robmkivseries70]

This is a very good list of "how to" strategy and the tactics to back it up.
Best,
Rob

 

[fallout mike]

I agree with yall. Az lawman post is a "how to" properly deal post. I've had a couple of similar incidents. In my case it was 6-1 one time in a very nearly identical scenario as this one. My actions were very similar. I'm still here in one piece.

 

[smalls]

Our daughter/SIL recently moved out of Phoenix to Scotsdale. They both now carry and are taking some form of the arts. When they first moved to Ariz. there was a serial killer on the loose and I worried about my SILs pacifist manner. Glad he finally saw the light--he wanted a 9mm for a wedding present---yep, he got one and 300 rds of ammo. Last year for Christmas they got more ammo for both their handguns and some 39 for their SKS. Hope they want a shotgun for a Christmas present this year because that is what they are going to get-lol.

06- Where do we find in laws like you? I want a pair! Haha!

 

[SSN Vet]

Though I'm more than capable of swapping out a blown radiator hose in a parking lot (usually in a snow bank up in these parts)...

I find basic AAA to be dirt cheap, and don't hesitate to use it .... (they actually dumped me once, long ago).

Having a wrecker tow the truck out of there and you providing the ride home, would have been, perhaps, a better strategy.

Leaving the vehicle over night (with the store managers permission) may have also been a better option. You both could have come back and made the repair the next a.m. at a time of day when honest working folks are out and about and street rats are sleeping of the previous nights fun.

 

[Ledgehammer]

So I really don't understand what your problem is.

"You wanna get smoked? You wants a beat down? I can go gets my gat."

I lifted my shirt, and put my hand on the Glock 21 I was carrying IWB.

Sounds like the script from a bad break dance movie circa 1987.

At this point - some cops may consider this brandishing a firearm. He could have called you in and possibly had you arrested. His word against yours, plus he can describe your weapon and it's location to the police can you describe his?

Nobody is flaming you here - it seems you're quick to get defensive and sarcastic. I'm not one to get in to a pointless back and forth here to see who can be more sarcastic. This is not personal, as I concur that late night gas station repairs can be a sketchy situation on any side of town.
I was simply promoting the idea of not purposely blocking a public air pump when you're not using it. I understand you had nothing to do with the choice of spots. I'm just saying I would have chosen a parking spot in front of the store to perform the necessary repair. At that late hour, I'm guessing there would be many, plus you're visible to the store clerk and anyone walking by -who could be potential witnesses to this type of altercation. Something to think about or pass on to your buddy. Like SSN said above call AAA or a wrecker at that hour might have been prudent.

Don't be a reciprocal jerk. Don't buy into the nonsense of the young punk, and show how tough you are by starting to bandy words with a moron. Ignore vigiliantly....

While I agree this is generally good advice in any situation, it did nothing to diffuse your particular situation. Did it?

Make sure you have your gun when you need it. Don't have to..."Go gets my gat." = Be prepared.

This pretty much somes up the whole situation. Some situations may be unavoidable - and that is why we carry. I personally didn't see the need for posting the urban phonetics and all of the posturing.

 

[fallout mike]

Az, why were u blocking the air pump?

 

[ZeBool]

At this point -some cops may consider this brandishing a firearm. He coul have called you in and possibly had you arrested. His word against yours, he can describe your weapon and it's location to the police can you describ his?

I don't really care what a cop's OPINION is, I am only concerned with what the LAW is.

I think you did fine. If you did block the air pump, it was probably on accident. If I accidently blocked a pump, and someone asked me even REMOTELY nicely to move, I would. However, if someone came at me with with attitude or better yet, threats, I would not move it. They would wait until I was done. The thugs you described were nothing more than bullies, and allowing them to strong arm you only reinforces that behavior.

As to the OP being sarcastic, he is defending against being called a liar and attacks on his story about irrelevant little details such as where he parked his truck. Regardless of where he parked it, the verbal abuse directed toward him by those animals was unwarranted.

 

[Hoppes Love Potion]

I think the OP handled it well. I don't know the AZ laws regarding brandishing; it was still all talk at the point the OP showed his weapon. But it was good timing and ultimately a good strategy, legal or not.

 

[Fred Fuller]

A couple of questions I don't recall seeing mentioned in the account so far- it they were and I just missed them, please let me know.

Who called the local cops and reported these characters, and at what point? If not, why not?

lpl

 

[alex4922]

Give it up AZ, Ledge is beyond hope.

A

 

[Diggers]

Nice Job AZ, I'm sure you have had a lot of dealings with those types in the past. Good advice on how to handle it.

Lee, there really isn't anything to tell the cops. Just a few punks mouthing off looking for trouble. (That they could handle) They didn't break any laws to report, AZ and friend dealt with it fine. AZ is a retired LEO if there was a real issue he would call in the uniforms.

Seems the moderators have decided, for some reason, to put everyone on a short leash. One of my posts was censored a few days ago also.

 

[JTH]

Nothing here, move along..................

 

[fallout mike]

Diggers, I'm thinking he should have called the cops too. Right after the person asked him if wanted to get smoked and before him saying he was going to get his gun, Az should have told them to hold on a sec so I can call 911. Just my 2 cents. Everyone thinks different though.

 

[Ledgehammer]

They didn't break any laws to report, AZ and friend dealt with it fine. AZ is a retired LEO if there was a real issue he would call in the uniforms.

Precisely the reason this whole thread is a non issue and seems a little half baked. It comes off as nothing more than a "look what I did" Now stroke my ego and tell me how cool/tough I am thread.

 

[Kleanbore]

So, with no link or police report, we have an unconfirmed story about a night confrontation; unnecessary ethnic phonetics in the reported dialog; threats; all apparently diffused when a gun or two is seen; all this in an open carry jurisdiction.

The OP and his friend say that they would gladly have moved the truck had they been asked nicely but not under the reported circumstances, and laud themselves for not "backing down", and another poster agrees.

Another poster cites the story as a " 'how to' properly deal post", and someone else opines that it was a "good strategy, legal or not", which is highly contradictory.

For those who would characterize politeness as as a sign of weakness, or promote stubbornness as an appropriate response, it is important to understand, first and foremost, that the civilian who desires to stay unhurt and out of trouble will always attempt to avoid, evade and deescalate any confrontation from the outset. See this for more.

Regarding the fact that the police were not called, there need not be laws broken to report an incident; the incident could have gone out of control at any moment, and an earlier 911 call is better than one that comes after the fact; the call might well have proved helpful had the OP and his friend been reported as having committed assault; and had the gang returned armed, the fact of the earlier report having been made could work to the advantage of the OP in the aftermath.

 

[Fred Fuller]

If it isn't about anything else, S&T is about learning lessons. There are lots of lessons to be learned, lots of ways to learn them, and lots of teachers of various sorts (not all of them human individuals, some are circumstances, events etc) out there imparting lessons to those willing to learn them.

It's an old saying - "Learn from the mistakes of others, you can never live long enough to make them all yourself."

What individual members here take away from the material that appears in S&T is important to the staff here. We try not to be all didactic (fancy word for teacherish) all the time here, sometimes we fail at that but that's the way it goes. Teaching lessons online and when someone else basically controls what's brought up and how it's discussed is a lot harder than traditional, conventional teaching in a classroom scenario. But people can still draw lessons, and will do so.

S&T is here for the good guys. We want to model and teach on that basis. Not to get all namby pamby Pollyannaish - shooting someone, or threatening to, is hardly namby pamby Pollyannaish behavior. But the basic question going into almost any discussion here in S&T is pretty simple:

What would the good guy do?

And in cases like the one described here, good guys generally call the cops. It's pretty much a given that if you carry a gun you need to be carrying some other tools as well, and one of those tools should be a cell phone.

I don't want to come across as judgmental here. I'm not the be all and end all of tacticality, never have been and never will be. I used to tell my Special Forces Operations and Intelligence students - I'm not a has been, I'm a never was. And I still am - just a plain old private citizen, never a service member (though I did stay in ROTC in 1970/71 at the winding down of the war), never a sworn LEO (though I did ride reserve with my small town police department in the mid-1970s). Other staff members here have different histories - some have been service members, some have been LEOs, etc.

It may be that the OP considered that the thugs he encountered had learned a sufficient lesson from the incident and wouldn't be any further problem. I don't know what was in his mind or what prompted him to do or not do any given thing. That's his decision, his business.

But he put his business out here for us to pick apart and analyze, and more importantly, for us to use to try and learn from. He even presented a very clear list of what he thought was important to take away from the incident in question. I'm all in favor of clarity.

In the Army, they talk about "the school solution" for various problems that soldiers encounter. Often enough, the "school solution" is referred to only in the breach - as an insufficient approach to solving whatever problem exists. Another old saying - "There's the right way, the wrong way and the Army way." A lot of time is spent in field problems in solving problems other ways than via "the school solution." Often enough, in the conventional Army, such inventiveness is not welcome in an environment where the goal/objective is teaching just "the school solution."

I spent the majority of my time as a Department of the Army civilian in the special operations community. Even there, at the time I was working there, the "school solution" was stressed first- but the idea was, if you hadn't mastered the "school solution" approach, then you weren't really ready yet to seek other options/approaches.

Well, we have a set of "school solutions" here in S&T as well. And one of the "school solutions" here is that good guys call 9-1-1 FIRST.

I'm not saying that AZ and his friend are not good guys. I believe they are.

But they did, in my evaluation of the situation as reported, take some things for granted that I don't think I would have done under the circumstances. And I would rather have sicced the local LEOs on the Cutlass crew, and let the local LEOs sort out the situation, than let this bunch roll off into the night to an unknown future. It's possible to "what if" anything to death - back many years ago when I was going through the basic EMS class, we used to refer to classmates' endless "what if" questions with "What If, Volume 37" or the like.

But still... what if the Cutlass crew had an AK, an SKS or even a High Point carbine in the car? Or a couple of handguns? Impossible? Is it really? Of all the things I wouldn't personally have done, letting multiple individuals who had directly threatened me with armed violence get out of sight and out of direct control into a vehicle with unknown contents without calling 9-1-1 would not be high on my list of ways to respond to that situation.

What if they took their attitude, now enhanced with a lot of frustration, and dumped it onto the next unwitting person or people they came across - who likely would not be armed and prepared to deal with them? Want that burden on your shoulders? I wouldn't.

I don't know how the local LEOs elsewhere would respond to a situation like the one presented. I know how the SO in my rural area of NC would react, and I wouldn't want to not call them on a crew like this and have the SO find out I didn't call when I should have. YMMV in your jurisdiction of course, you have to make your own judgments and act accordingly.

fwiw,

lpl

 

[Fred Fuller]

And reference deleted or "censored" posts...

OK, a little advice to the S&T membership re. deleted posts....

If you notice a post of yours has disappeared, that's what is known in the detective business as a CLUE.

It's a clue that in the judgement of whatever staff member is moderating at that time, either you said something you shouldn't have said, or you said something in a way you shouldn't have said it, or you quoted something someone else shouldn't have said, or you replied to something that shouldn't have been there in the first place to be replied to. And those posts get deleted.

Sometimes when posts are deleted, there's a PM (private message) explaining the situation and suggesting that you not do that again. If you get a PM regarding a deleted post, you usually get AN INFRACTION of some sort to go with it, because if whatever it was that got the post deleted was bad enough to rate a PM, it usually rates an infraction as well. Most times deleted posts don't get a PM or an infraction, they just go away. Actually, deleted posts don't really go away - they just go into a sort of electronic limbo where only the staff can see them. Your words are still there, just invisible to members.

But it might be some members don't know any of that, since we have an awful lot of new members. And the last thing I want is for the moderating process here to appear mysterious and arbitrary. It isn't. The staff here at THR talks to each other- A LOT. Very few staff decisions - and those are relatively minor in the scale of things - happen completely independently/individually. We ban spammers reflexively, as an example. We don't discuss it, we just do it. Most other stuff gets talked over.

The rules the THR staff tries to enforce are pretty clearly stated, and are posted for easy member access as well. Look at the topmost green bar on any page of THR, and the second button from the left, just after User Options, is RULES.

S&T has a set of rules that are even more strict than the general rules that apply throughout THR. A lot of new members and a lot of old members who participate here obviously have not read those rules. I can say that so definitively because the new rules were issued fairly recently, and the hit count on the rules thread (stickied at the top of the S&T Index page) reflects only a fraction - a minor fraction at that - of THR's current active members. Last night the hit counter on the rules thread was at about 160 hits, out of over 17,000 active members - all of whom have full access to S&T. For those who didn't know, S&T is a members-only forum- that status is relatively new as well.

THR is what it is because it is moderated. This is not an anything-goes forum. There are plenty of those on the web- if you want an anything-goes forum, THR might not be the place for you. THR is intended to be a family friendly forum. We consider ourselves representatives to the public on the Inernet for the shooting and RKBA community, and we want to put our best face forward. That's why we have rules at THR, and that's why the place is moderated.

The rules for S&T are even more voluminous than the rules for the rest of THR. The standards for conduct in S&T are even higher. It isn't a question of "tightening up the leash" in S&T. The "leash" has been there all along - some members just might not have hit the end of it before. Reading the rules might help explain "the leash."

So - there we have a little bit of explanation regarding some of what goes on here, and why. Any questions?

lpl

ETA - Since this has come up a couple of times recently, I'm also posting this as thread of its own. Please direct any questions/discussion/comments/objections to that thread, which will be stickied for a while. See http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=582651 for the separate thread.

 

[txhoghunter]

Okay, unlike ledge and some others, I see a few lessons to be learned from here.

1. Upon seeing "sketchy" individuals, a more defensive position was taken.
2. AZ was polite, even though he was not given the same in return.
3. Guns were left OUT of the mix, until the threat escalated itself.

Now, ledge, please quit nitpicking everything. Look into the post to see what can be learned. And if you already knew all of this, great, you might be ahead of the curve. There is no use insulting AZ Lawman for trying to help others.

Great job Lawman, as far as I'm concerned you and Dave handled this very well.

 

[Ledgehammer]

There is no use insulting AZ Lawman for trying to help others.

Where did I insult anybody? I hope some ego's aren't so fragile that a simple disagreement or discussion is viewed as an insult.

Look - there is nothing else that I can say that hasn't already been said or reiterated by a forum moderator. My interest in this thread is way past expired.

 

[fallout mike]

I mean no disrespect to anyone here but I'm not following some of you. I've had nearly the identical thing happen to me so this hits close to home. I'm sure for Az as with me I had no time to call 911. The only thought going through your head is what to do to survive. Az said he wwas no where close to blocking the air pump. These guys were looking for trouble. That's the bottom line. I had 6 guys do the same thing to me one time. Luckily I got away with no violence. Another time 2 guys jumped me with knives. Luckily I was in green bay, WI in below freezing temp with thick clothes on and only got a couple of minor cuts on my face. Luckily I wasn't the one in need of EMS. Bottom line is that there is no amount of situational awareness or foresight to prevent everything bad from happening. Bad things do indeed happen to good people. Critiqueing the actions id one thing and is part of posting such on this forum however we should make sure we read the posts in its entireity and make sure we get it all correctly before we critique. And there should never be any hinting towards maybe the op starter is lieing. Not on this section anyways. The reason being is bc this type of thing really shakes you up to begin with. It really would make you feel jacked up to have someone hint around that you may be lying or look at me , I'm cool comments when you talk about it. We don't know what that person may be feeling. Anyway, that's my take.