Physical Fitness for Retention

[Tejicano Loco]

I have been a member of any number of different gun forums over the past 15 years or so but I just recently signed up and began participating here. I find that most members I have interacted with here seem more realistic than those I have found at many other forums. And so I would like to pose a question about training which I would not expect realistic answers to in most other forums.

With respect to firearms retention – besides, or in addition to, learning and practicing retention techniques - do you have an exercise routine to maintain fitness enough to physically confront somebody who might attempt to grab your firearm? While I doubt that the largest majority of gun owners could be expected to physically overcome a trained fighter in his prime I do believe we should all be as ready as possible to confront a realistic opponent – and win. One of the basics that would be necessary – fitness, defined as strength and stamina – is at least as important as technique.

My question : what do you do to maintain fitness to a level that you would have the strength and stamina to retain your firearm should somebody attempt to take it from you?

 

[Fred Fuller]

It's definitely an issue of endurance, but endurance won't do a lot of good without the necessary skillset to go with it.

Try an ECQC session with Southnarc and you will rapidly see what I mean...

 

[strambo]

I don't think it matters that much, it will be over in seconds with someone being shot or beaten to death. Unless neither party really knows what they are doing...then it is just a wrestling match.

Skill trumps everything else. Take 2 people, same size/strength and skill level. Train 1 for 10hrs/week in hand to hand combat. Train the other for 3 hrs per week in hand to hand and 7 hrs per week in fitness. After a month, I'd bet on the one who only trained in H2H. Not in a contest, but in a to the death violent situation. Training, sparring, competition all place higher demands on fitness level than a violent situation, it is over a lot faster.

I'm not downplaying fitness (at one time I was a personal trainer), just that if the goal is retention/hand to hand combat, seek and practice that. Maintain a decent level of general fitness also.

 

[jeepnik]

Loco,

I think you'll find that the members here cross all of the age/fitness spectrum. Myself, I'm 60 with a back and joints years of abuse haven't been kind to. I still "try" and practice some of the aikido I began with as a teen.

How I would fare against a younger more agile opponent would hopefully come down to the old saying "age and treachery will overcome youth and exuberance every time".

 

[Pizzapinochle]

" it will be over in seconds with someone being shot or beaten to death."

Shot, yes, beaten, no.

One untrained person will not be able to kill someone in a physical confrontation in any short amount of time.

Even multiple attackers would be very very unlikely to kill someone in seconds.

With a weapon of some sort, obviously that changes, but in terms of hand to hand, usually takes some time and endurance is actually very important. Many fights between people without significant training end up on the ground and with both people very worn out, the person who can keep fighting effectively longer wins.

However, skill is more important than strength/endurance. It does not take a lot of technique to really take advantage of people who don't know what they are doing. Get some basic training in defensive grappling skills. Doesn't take being a master, but you have to TRY it in as close to a real situation as possible. My friends and I would practice defensive grappling and we would go "to tap," meaning you go until you can't breath or you think something is going to break. You learn a VERY different set of techniques in that situation than what most people think constitute fighting skills. If you know what you are doing, even a bigger/stronger opponent will wear themselves out before they do a significant amount of damage in a h2h situation. You may not be able to beat them, but if they get tired enough you can escape.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

It's dangerous and foolish to think that simply having had formal training in hand to hand is going to assure victory against a physically superior opponent. After all if your not training regularly, your competency is just theoretical, and your conditioning is probably lacking. You should be prepared for the possibility that when faced with an attacker that your best attack might miss it's mark. Why is it that all self defense people agree that having a few extra rounds in the magazine is a great idea, but many believe having a few extra rounds in the ole' gas tank isn't necessary?

 

[frankenstein406]

Here's a easy exercise and cheap. Find a big car or truck tire, drill a hole through and put a eye bolt or rope through. Attach a bungee cord, 8-10 feet of rope and make a loop or use a weight belt around your waist. You can keep getting bigger tires or adding weight, asphalt is hardest and gravel easiest.

 

[Tejicano Loco]

The way I see it is that if it has come down to "firearms retention" that means the opponent has some level of control of either your pistol or the arm/hand you are holding that pistol with. At that point you have already lost ground and it will take skill and effort to regain the advantage.

Many fights I have seen seem to end up with both opponents grappling on the floor. Particularly if the incident begins with a close struggle over a pistol that seems to be a likely step - intended or not - in the ordeal. I was on my high school wrestling team and know how much energy that takes - with two opponents of average abilities endurance can often be the deciding factor.

Of course I am not saying to forget techniques and training and only focus on physical fitness. But I would say that there has to be some balance between the two. Both are necessary.

I am 55 myself but have been lucky that the injuries I have had over the years do not impede my workout routine so much.

 

[tepin]

If the perp attacks another person knowing that that person is armed with a gun, it would be reasonable to conclude that the attacker believes that they have the skill and ability to get your gun from you and use it against you. As Ayoob says, it doesn't matter if the gun is laying on the ground 15 feet from you or if its in your hand or holster, the perp is going for a gun and by doing so, they have made their intent clear. Ideally the perp doesn't get within 21-30 feet of the intended victim.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

The way I see it is that if it has come down to "firearms retention" that means the opponent has some level of control of either your pistol or the arm/hand you are holding that pistol with. At that point you have already lost ground and it will take skill and effort to regain the advantage.

Many fights I have seen seem to end up with both opponents grappling on the floor. Particularly if the incident begins with a close struggle over a pistol that seems to be a likely step - intended or not - in the ordeal. I was on my high school wrestling team and know how much energy that takes - with two opponents of average abilities endurance can often be the deciding factor.

Of course I am not saying to forget techniques and training and only focus on physical fitness. But I would say that there has to be some balance between the two. Both are necessary.

I am 55 myself but have been lucky that the injuries I have had over the years do not impede my workout routine so much.

Specifically for retention I would focus on balance and upper body endurance: Oblique, lower abs and lumbar, deltoids and fore arms.
Get a partner to work a single hook grip on your neck (Cupping the back of your head with one arm) and you with your hands on your hips have them pull you around by the neck. Left, right, forward, diagonal. Have the switch from right to left, and even two hands (Thai clinch) set a timer, try to go for 3 minutes. Then switch, now your forearms will get a work out too!
For upper body think about clinging on to that gun for dear life, so "negative" pull ups will be your best ally. Rope climbing, or your other basic gym work. Just remember if your doing dynamic low weight high reps.. best to just set a timer and skip the counting.

 

[Tejicano Loco]

My upper body work is mostly, but not exclusively, the following :

- Max dead hang chin-ups followed by an equal number of kipped pull-ups.
- A short number of one-arm negative pull-ups with the goal to be doing complete one-arm pull-ups.
- High-rep (25 to 50) 135 lb deadlifts
- 50 push-up sprints (constant pace, no rests)
- 16 kg kettlebell clean and press (40 to 50 reps)
- GHD sit-ups (30 to 50 reps)
- Floor-wipers with 135 lb barbell

Number of reps depends on whether I am going for speed or working on increasing strength.

I mix this up with other routines I have found on the Cross-Fit website like "death by pull-ups" (do one pull-up, 20 second rest, do two pull-ups, 20 second rest, continue adding one rep until you cannot), "knees to elbows" on the pull-up bar, Roman chair sit-up rows, other kettlebell work, etc.

These workouts are on off days between my run days - 30 minute run, distance recently is 3.5 to 3.7 miles. I get one rest day per week.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Grabbing for someone's gun puts you in a remarkably vulnerable position! Let's say for the sake of argument that you have a firearm trained on someone and they grab the muzzle and try to wrest it from you. Assuming you have a decent grip on the gun and don't lose it instantly, merely falling backward will leave the assailant in the kill zone; attempting to hold onto the gun will pull him or her perfectly into position to be shot COM, making the wrestling match a very very short one. This works with long guns and handguns.

By the same token you must never attempt to disarm anyone by pulling on the gun! To take a gun away you have to push it, not pull it.

At ranges close enough to grab a firearm, remember that the gun is just a tool. The weapon is your brain. It can be a fatal mistake to focus solely on the gun. If I am close enough to go for your holstered gun then I'm close enough to have to gouge my eyes out...I've even made it easier for you by dropping my hands from a defensive position and giving you easy access. You might simply ignore my hand on your sidearm and put both thumbs in my eyes.

 

[strambo]

You might simply ignore my hand on your sidearm and put both thumbs in my eyes.

I would; and/or crush your throat, stomp your knee or ankle, then stomp your neck...you can have the gun.

Good post.

 

[leadcounsel]

When I hear weapon retention, I think it's less about situation where the weapon is drawn, and more about when it's still holstered.

I knew a cop who was jumped and the perp went for the holstered gun. Cop had several bones in his hand broken trying to KEEP it from being unholstered. He was successful at keeping it retained in the holster and the perp did not get it, and ultimately fled and was caught.

IF the weapons still in the holster, I agree that striking the persons face/throat or stomping on feet or kicks to knees/shins will be effective.

IF the weapon is drawn and grabbed for, step back and fire into the perp. IF the perp grabs it, then....

Overall body cardio fitness, and hand/arm/forearm/shoulder strength, along with judo-style wrestling, perhaps a shoulder or hip throw or leg sweep. A twisting and turning move and suddenly you are in a great position for an arm bar, hip throw, shoulder throw, etc. People tend to naturally let go of things and brace their fall when they are going down or have their arm dislocated.

A trained grappler would have a massive advantage against an untrained grappler when it comes to leverage, throw, arm bars, or even taking the person to the ground. Grabbing at the gun is almost the same as grabbing a lapel or an arm or a chest, etc. and once you do that, unless you know what you're doing, a grappler is going to own you.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

If a person puts his hands on your holstered gun he's also volunteering for some pain! Same stuff applies- his hands are conveniently out of the way and useless to protect him. You can also help him keep his hand pressed onto your gun where you can break his hand more easily. Hold his hand/wrist while rotating into him and and leaning in. Or of course, use Strambo's approach!

 

[ChCx2744]

This is a good thread. I'm going to return to it later once I've read some feedback on more members. I am also looking into some sort of hand-to-hand training and firearms retention training sometime soon.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I am also looking into some sort of hand-to-hand training and firearms retention training sometime soon.

See if there is a session of ECQC within traveling distance - http://shivworks.com/?page_id=2

 

[CA Raider]

the main thing is to improve your hand-eye coordination. that is very important. two drills:

1. good old fashioned boxing against a light bag helps a lot. you don't need to punch it hard. just aim for the target and hit the target on the bag. this teaches you range-to-target and better hand speed.

2. the old drill that boxers did. get yourself a rubber superball. one of those balls that really bounces. walk around, bounce it on the ground, and catch it with one hand. practice this with both hands. this will really improve your judgment of where to grab a distant target.

good luck,
CA R

 

[DT Guy]

" it will be over in seconds with someone being shot or beaten to death."

Shot, yes, beaten, no.

One untrained person will not be able to kill someone in a physical confrontation in any short amount of time.

Even multiple attackers would be very very unlikely to kill someone in seconds.

With a weapon of some sort, obviously that changes, but in terms of hand to hand, usually takes some time and endurance is actually very important. Many fights between people without significant training end up on the ground and with both people very worn out, the person who can keep fighting effectively longer wins.

However, skill is more important than strength/endurance. It does not take a lot of technique to really take advantage of people who don't know what they are doing. Get some basic training in defensive grappling skills. Doesn't take being a master, but you have to TRY it in as close to a real situation as possible. My friends and I would practice defensive grappling and we would go "to tap," meaning you go until you can't breath or you think something is going to break. You learn a VERY different set of techniques in that situation than what most people think constitute fighting skills. If you know what you are doing, even a bigger/stronger opponent will wear themselves out before they do a significant amount of damage in a h2h situation. You may not be able to beat them, but if they get tired enough you can escape.

This is profoundly wrong. Any number of people have been killed by a single punch, and an untrained person can kill another simply by knocking them down into something. Going into a physical confrontation prepared to trade blows is a strategy that can have a serious downside.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

I think it's profoundly dangerous to assume you can down any threat under every condition with a single blow. Yes it's possible but reality is it's not consistent. Better to have a few extra seconds of stamina and not need them, and still train with fight ending intent in your striking.

 

[strambo]

How many seconds it lasts doesn't matter. From a physiology standpoint, fitness (specifically, aerobic) only will come into play if the altercation lasts longer then the body can generate energy in oxygen debt (anaerobic). In general terms, you can go all out 30s to a minute or so before your muscles need oxygen to keep going.

So, in a fight for your life, if you are trained enough to end it in 30s or so (a long time in life or death terms), fitness won't be a factor. So, the one blow fight ender isn't critical, you just have to injure them effectively and not waste time with ineffective blows that just waste energy and don't cause injury.

Fitness is important though, in the immediate tactical sense, good anaerobic conditioning helps you recover fast from that burst to be ready to engage additional threats, or get the heck outta dodge, while still being able to think and function.

As a matter of mindset and practice, I train with "fight ending intent" in all my striking. I just train to strike (and injure them) until they are non-functional. I don't assume the first one will do it and never in training just deliver one blow and stop.

My training can require quite a bit of fitness at the higher skill levels...but a real situation would end a whole lot faster then a hour long session. the whole "train hard, fight easy" mantra.

 

[Pizzapinochle]

DTGuy-

I don't think we disagree as much as you think.

Agreed, there are plenty of instances of someone dying after receiving one punch. It is usually not the punch that does the damage, usually a punch to the head knocks someone backward and they fall without protecting themselves and their head impacts the ground. The impact with the ground causes the heavy damage, not the punch.

Most of these situations are "sucker punch" situation. Someone not expecting a punch gets punched and their head hits the ground.

The OP was asking about fitness in a retention/confrontation situation. I was assuming the situation is not a "sucker punch" type of confrontation when both participants are engaged/defending themselves. In such a situation, landing a full force punch to a defenseless opponent (the type of blow resulting in "one punch deaths") is not going to be common.

But yes, there are ways for someone to die very quickly, especially if they are not defending themselves effectively.

I was more responding to the question of: When defending myself, how important is fitness in executing the defense?

The question of a deadly single punch is more an issue of being prepared to defend oneself or being aware of a situation/threat.