Picking a used sidelock for deer...

[WZRoberts]

Hi all,

A good friend has decided to try muzzleloading (for whitetail) for the first time, and I'm giving him my .50 inline and planning to refinish/upgrade an old sidelock to replace it. In other words, I found a good excuse to jump into a new project.

I've found three used muzzleloaders that interest me: an older Cabela's Sporterized Hawken Carbine with a 21" barrel and synthetic stock in .58 caliber, a .50 caliber marked "Made in USA" on the barrel (CVA Mountain Rifle?), and a .50 Thompson Renegade. They are all in good shape. I can buy the CVA and the Thompson for $100 each, maybe a little less. I don't have as firm a price on the Cabela's Hawken, but it's somewhere around $100-$150.

My initial thought is that if the "Made in USA" rifle holds true to it's reputation, I should be able to find a PRB recipe and aftermarket sight that will let me shoot reliably to around 120 yards. I won't have a lot of knockdown power or blood trail, but my experience is that a deer hit in the vitals with anything over .35 caliber and 500fps is going to die very quickly.

Part of me likes the idea of a handy carbine that packs a mighty wallop, and I've considered buying the Cabela's carbine or buying the Renegade and a GM .58 barrel.

Would the .58 roundball over a managable amount of powder have a real-world distance advantage over the .50 roundball, or does the ball start dropping so quickly that shots over 75-80 yards get difficult to pull off in the field? Are any of the rifles I mentioned notably better or worse than the two others? Most importantly, which sounds like the most fun to shoot?

 

[arcticap]

A .58 round ball would provide significantly more knock down power downrange especially for large game. However I don't know if the 21" barrel of the Cabela's .58 Hawkin is an accurate round ball shooter at longer distances or not. I suspect that it may shoot conicals better. And the light synthetic stock may produce a wallop.
The CVA with the USA barrel could be an accurate and relatively more valuable gun if the barrel is in good shape. But that doesn't mean that it would be your personal choice for hunting with.
The CVA isn't as heavy as the Renegade which could make it the more pleasurable gun for simple recreational shooting.
However a Renegade with the .58 GM barrel would be the best choice for long range hunting and it would provide a high fun factor, but be sure to check on the barrel availability.

 

[WZRoberts]

Ok, I'm thinking more seriously about converting the Renegade to .58 and using PRB. My long distance hunting rifle is a Parker-Hale .300 Win. mag. bolt action, shooting factory ammo. I can manage that amount of recoil, but I'm not interested in hunting with a muzzleloader that kicks much harder! Can anyone comment on what sort of powder charge would give similar or slightly less recoil out of the converted Renegade, and what sort of ballistics that charge would give? And at what distance would I need a PhD. in Kentucky Windage to hit a deer's vitals consistently?

 

[BE Wild Willy]

I would have to vote for the T/C also, especially at that price. I would consider trying it out as is, 50 cal is no slouch. For me, anything over 100yds with open sights starts to become a crap shoot.

 

[arcticap]

A .570 round ball weighs 278 grains which isn't very much of a weight difference from a saboted bullet out of a .50. While the ballistics of the round ball is different, I saw one table showing that the .58 round ball shoots extremely flat out to 100 yards when loaded at a velocity of 1650 fps..
Whatever the velocity, if the zero is increased to 125 yards then it may be possible to expect reasonable accuracy and with less drop out to 150 yards.
There are online calculators including for recoil which require the weight of the gun, and for trajectory which require a bullet coefficient and a velocity figure to be entered.
But without actually testing the gun then it's only hypothetical.
And even the length of the barrel and the type of powder would be a factor.
Someone shot a smaller elk at 125 -150 yards with a .58 round ball and they basically aimed for the top of the back and dropped the elk.
It would be a stretch to think that a .50 round ball could have worked the same.
The real question might be how good are your eyes?

 

[Pulp]

Here's a link to where you can download a ballistics calculator for round balls. You put in the caliber, weight, velocity etc, and it will give you rise and fall, time of flight etc.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/rbballistics.html

You have to download the calculator to your computer.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I'd go with the T/C....I bought two 50 cal T/C Greyhawks at the same time, sold one to a friend. I used patched round balls he used mega-heavy Buffalo Bullets of some sort. Either rifle/load would put all the shots in a paper plate at 100 yards with no hold over.

 

[Busyhands94]

i found that a Lee Improved Minnie ball is great in a .50 caliber! i don't know if they make them in .58, i don't think they do. they are deadly when cast with pure lead and weigh 360 grains. but remember, use ONLY pure lead or the skirts won't flare and won't engage the rifling and you will have a bullet that keyholes, and there goes your penetration if it does that.

 

[klutchless]

50 T/C renegade with 90grains pyrodex and a 270 grain powerbelt all the way.I can hit paper plates at 150 but I have to take my time.

 

[WZRoberts]

Thanks for the advice...

Thanks for the advice, y'all have given me quite a bit to think about. As a group y'all speak highly for the Renegade, and that's understandable given their long and successful history.

A little more background on my hunting experience: I've only used one muzzleloader, a .50cal Knight inline, and I'm giving it to a friend in order to try something different. I'm not too likely to shoot sabots or conicals out of a .50 Renegade, just because I've already done something very similar. I've decided to use either .50 prb in the CVA or .58 prb in the Renegade/GM.

Maybe I need to just pick one, practice and hunt with it this year, and then decide whether to keep it or sell it before next season.

Thanks for the advice, and keep it coming!

 

[J-Bar]

Renegade, 50 caliber. Ammo available anywhere. Good quality gun. Safe buy.

 

[WZRoberts]

...and I can always (when in stock) buy an accessory barrel in .54 or 58 if I want to try a different caliber.

Makes sense.

 

[longrifle346]

I'll take Renegades for $1000 Alex, and don't underestimate the killing power of a PRB, it'll absolutely get the job done and usually with considerably less shoulder and cheek damage than a conical.

First, TC is a company well-known in the BP shooting world for it's quality and wrap-around warranty. I've sent second-hand parts back to them, told TC they were bought used, and received new or the original repaired in a few days, returned and shipped free.

Second, the standard 1" Renegade platform(or the 1" barrel channeled Hawken stock, found in 54 caliber) with it's hooked breach system will allow you to switch barrels at will and any good 1" barrel can be bored smooth or rifled up to 62 caliber for usually less than a C note. I purposely look for "bad" barrels(usually just in dire need of proper maintenance) to save for future projects. I've owned probably 10 different barrels in the past couple of years, both rifled and smoothbore, and right now I have a 50, a 54, and a 58 caliber Green Mountain barrel in the rack for my Hawken/Renegade collection. I'll soon be sending the factory 50 to Mr. Ed Rayle in W.VA to be bored into a jug-choked smoothbore 62 for next spring's turkey season.

As for caliber, from a hunter's standpoint the 50 is completely adequate for whitetail at normal BP ranges but the 54 and 58 are better choices IMO for several reasons. Larger frontal areas and retained downrange energy at the outer edges of those normal hunting ranges makes the 58 king of the woods with very little difference in felt recoil and will allow hunting any animal on the continent. An added benefit is that the increased bore size(larger bore, more metal removed) results in a lighter rifle(with the same length barrel) to carry all day in the woods.

Lastly, there are tons of aftermarket products if you're one of those who feels HC/PC challenged by the TC. Pecatonica River ML has aftermarket stocks in an advertised 98% inletted stage with a little more drop in the stock and freedom to more accurately tailor length of pull. Their stocks allows you to drop-in all of the hardware straight from your Renegade or Hawken, most fit perfectly, some require only a few minutes of inletting. I've got a Grade 3 curly maple stock on the bench right now for Jim Bridger-style Hawken.

As for accuracy with your 58 GM you can expect it to be outstanding with almost any load you feed it but for hunting I use 100 grains of FFG Goex(or 80-85 grains Triple7) with a tight patched(.018 or better) .570 roundball. I've also found that adding a slightly oversized 1/8" fiber wad will tighten up groups considerably and prevent the inevitable patch burning of large loads of Triple7. It also lets you use a little damper patch(Hoppe's#9 BP Cleaner and Lube), which will let you shoot more between swabbing if you're so inclined....I clean between every shot.