I use round balls only in my revolvers. What I would like to know is what is the cylinder capacity for my Pietta 1851 revolvers for calibers .36 and .44 ? Once I know this, I can balance out how much corn meal filler I need to add to fill a cylinder. I always want a snug powder charge - no loose powder in a cylinder. On the other hand, I also came by a bag of 100 .44 cal. wads. If I use these on top of 22 to 25 grains of Pyrodex will the powder charge be snug enough ? Keep in mind that for measurement purposes, I only use Pyrodex "P" powder. I look forward to your responses.
Pietta 1851 cylinder capacities: .36 & .44
- Thread starter NCdad
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D. Buck Stopshere
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As to powder charges in a .36 caliber, I believe max is around 20-25 grains of Pyrodex "P" grade, depending on whether you are using a felt wad or not. Target load is about 15 grains coupled with cream of wheat, round ball, & grease on top.
In a .44 caliber, 30 to 35 grains is max depending on whether you are using a felt wad or not. Target load is 15 to 20 grains, coupled with choice of filler, ball, and grease.
In both calibers, the important thing about target loads is that the rammer is able to seat the ball on the reduced powder charge to compress the powder. Loose powder does not perform well.
In a target load, using a felt wad, you may be able to seat the ball firmly to compress the powder, depending on the load height in the cylinder. The felt wad is just a convenient substitute for grease over the top of the ball. Less mess and clean-up. Few competitors, however, use the wads because of the cost savings that grease provides.
Most of us here that shoot in NMLRA line target matches with revolvers, use cream of wheat or corn meal after the reduced powder charge so that the ball is seated just below the cylinder face. With these fillers, there is no need for the felt wad. Some form of grease is applied over the ball to soften the fouling in the barrel.
In my Ruger Old Army, "Dragoon Model", .44 caliber, I use 18 grains of Swiss 3FG coupled with cream of wheat, a .457 RB and T/C Bore Butter on top. In my Ruger (custom-made) "Old Navy", .36 caliber, I use 15 grains of Swiss 3FG, coupled with cream of wheat, .380 RB, and Bore Butter on top. These loads are accurate out to 50 yards.
Hope this helps.
Are you still in the Tarheel state?
I can put you in touch with about six muzzleloading clubs here in NC.
You can reach me at [email protected]
Buck Buchanan
Field Rep-NC
NMLRA
In a .44 caliber, 30 to 35 grains is max depending on whether you are using a felt wad or not. Target load is 15 to 20 grains, coupled with choice of filler, ball, and grease.
In both calibers, the important thing about target loads is that the rammer is able to seat the ball on the reduced powder charge to compress the powder. Loose powder does not perform well.
In a target load, using a felt wad, you may be able to seat the ball firmly to compress the powder, depending on the load height in the cylinder. The felt wad is just a convenient substitute for grease over the top of the ball. Less mess and clean-up. Few competitors, however, use the wads because of the cost savings that grease provides.
Most of us here that shoot in NMLRA line target matches with revolvers, use cream of wheat or corn meal after the reduced powder charge so that the ball is seated just below the cylinder face. With these fillers, there is no need for the felt wad. Some form of grease is applied over the ball to soften the fouling in the barrel.
In my Ruger Old Army, "Dragoon Model", .44 caliber, I use 18 grains of Swiss 3FG coupled with cream of wheat, a .457 RB and T/C Bore Butter on top. In my Ruger (custom-made) "Old Navy", .36 caliber, I use 15 grains of Swiss 3FG, coupled with cream of wheat, .380 RB, and Bore Butter on top. These loads are accurate out to 50 yards.
Hope this helps.
Are you still in the Tarheel state?
I can put you in touch with about six muzzleloading clubs here in NC.
You can reach me at [email protected]
Buck Buchanan
Field Rep-NC
NMLRA
D. Buck Stopshere
Member
According to my Lyman Black Powder Handbook, c 1975, the maximum charge using GOEX 3FG in a Lyman 1851 Navy .36 caliber, was 29 grains. The same revolver in .44 caliber was 37 grains of 3FG.
Back in 1975, Pyrodex was just introduced to the shooting public, so it was not used in these pressure tests by Lyman.
Someone else here may have a more recent publication to offer pressure loads using Pyrodex.
As you might know, Pyrodex is a bulkier powder than real black powder. Volume for volume, you measure Pyrodex the same as black powder. However, if you measure 30 grains of 3FG black powder, it weighs about 30 grains on the scale. If you measure 30 grains of Pyrodex, it weighs about 23 grains on the scale, so the claim of Pyrodex getting more shots per pound than black powder is true.
Best performance all around for competition shooters and plinkers is still black powder, whether it is GOEX, Schuetzen (German), or Swiss. The scarcity of dealers that have a F.E.L. license to sell black powder is what drives shooters to buy Pyrodex, American Pioneer, or Hodgdon's Triple 7 (777).
You can have black powder shipped right to your door. I just pooled an order for 25 pounds of GOEX & Swiss with eight friends with Powder, Inc. (479-705-0005) and it came in Wednesday.
Substitutes only need a FFL holder to sell. Black requires a FEL. When I closed my black powder store here in 2012, there were only 20 FEL's left in NC.
Back in 1975, Pyrodex was just introduced to the shooting public, so it was not used in these pressure tests by Lyman.
Someone else here may have a more recent publication to offer pressure loads using Pyrodex.
As you might know, Pyrodex is a bulkier powder than real black powder. Volume for volume, you measure Pyrodex the same as black powder. However, if you measure 30 grains of 3FG black powder, it weighs about 30 grains on the scale. If you measure 30 grains of Pyrodex, it weighs about 23 grains on the scale, so the claim of Pyrodex getting more shots per pound than black powder is true.
Best performance all around for competition shooters and plinkers is still black powder, whether it is GOEX, Schuetzen (German), or Swiss. The scarcity of dealers that have a F.E.L. license to sell black powder is what drives shooters to buy Pyrodex, American Pioneer, or Hodgdon's Triple 7 (777).
You can have black powder shipped right to your door. I just pooled an order for 25 pounds of GOEX & Swiss with eight friends with Powder, Inc. (479-705-0005) and it came in Wednesday.
Substitutes only need a FFL holder to sell. Black requires a FEL. When I closed my black powder store here in 2012, there were only 20 FEL's left in NC.
Hello D. Buck Stopshere !
Thank you for the advice ! I never go over 25 grains with my .44 pistols as they are 'brassers'. I've owned one of them since the 1990's. My .36 has a steel frame. I haven't shot it yet. I appreciate your informed advice ! I would gladly like to contact the muzzleloading clubs here in NC. I have been here for 29 years and not about to move. I live in a rural area just under the Virginia border.
To me, shooting black powder rifles and pistols is an art ! I love it and do not mind the clean up time. I was lubing the cylinders with Wonderlube. I have lots of it, since I worked for Remington for 14 years.
Thanks, NCdad
Thank you for the advice ! I never go over 25 grains with my .44 pistols as they are 'brassers'. I've owned one of them since the 1990's. My .36 has a steel frame. I haven't shot it yet. I appreciate your informed advice ! I would gladly like to contact the muzzleloading clubs here in NC. I have been here for 29 years and not about to move. I live in a rural area just under the Virginia border.
To me, shooting black powder rifles and pistols is an art ! I love it and do not mind the clean up time. I was lubing the cylinders with Wonderlube. I have lots of it, since I worked for Remington for 14 years.
Thanks, NCdad
Hello D. Buck Stopshere !
I bought a Pietta 1860 steel frame revolver for my son who lives in Colorado Springs, Colorado as a Christmas present. Then I bought a pound of American Pioneer Powder, 3F locally there. That was all the store sold - apparently they manufacture the stuff a few miles up the road so that's what the local shop stocks. What is your opinion of American Pioneer Powder ?
I bought a Pietta 1860 steel frame revolver for my son who lives in Colorado Springs, Colorado as a Christmas present. Then I bought a pound of American Pioneer Powder, 3F locally there. That was all the store sold - apparently they manufacture the stuff a few miles up the road so that's what the local shop stocks. What is your opinion of American Pioneer Powder ?
Thank you, but I don't think I shall use that much in my .36 ! I was thinking 20 grains maximum. I'll only be shooting targets. But it is informative to know the cylinder can accept that much ! I wonder how much velocity you achieve with that load - also the how many foot pounds of energy ? It must be impressive !
swathdiver
Member
Our .36 caliber Griswold and Gunnison's only take about 20-23 grains if memory serves, the whole chamber capacity was only about 30 grains. This is with a round ball, a wad and real Goex black powder.
LonesomePigeon
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The compression is different for black powder and Cream of Wheat. In other words if 15 grains 3F +15 grains of COW perfectly seats the ball at the chamber mouth that does not mean 20 grains 3F + 10 grains COW will do the same. It will be close but not quite the same. If you want to seat the ball perfectly every time you are just going to have to work it out for each charge.
i go with loads that i would use in the field or for defense. then i like a field grade trigger with no creep. my loads are adjusted for accuracy by a few grains one way or the other. that's the loads i shoot at the range. now if your shooting competition that’s another matter.
Oohrah!
Member
Buck, I'd like to know why NMLRA shooters want the ball at the face of the cylinder?
As for NCDad, this seems like a non-issue. I measured both my .36 and .44 1851 Navys and got this:
.36 - cylinder is 1.16 inches deep, the ram goes in 0.625 in, so with a .375 ball, that would only leave 0.16 in for powder, even without a wad.
.44 - cylinder is 1.34 inches deep, the ram goes in 0.75 inches, so with a .454 ball, that only leaves 0.14 for powder.
As for NCDad, this seems like a non-issue. I measured both my .36 and .44 1851 Navys and got this:
.36 - cylinder is 1.16 inches deep, the ram goes in 0.625 in, so with a .375 ball, that would only leave 0.16 in for powder, even without a wad.
.44 - cylinder is 1.34 inches deep, the ram goes in 0.75 inches, so with a .454 ball, that only leaves 0.14 for powder.
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D. Buck Stopshere
Member
Oohrah,
The reason for seating the ball just below the cylinder face is to have the ball closer to the forcing cone of the barrel. Less deformation than if there is, say, a inch gap between the forward "edge" of the ball and the forcing cone.
This is strictly for precision shooting at paper targets with a one-hand hold at both 25 & 50 yards in state, territorial, and national matches. Ninety-nine percent of the national-level competitors are using either the Remington New Model Army .44 caliber, Remington New Model Navy .36 caliber, or Ruger Old Army .44's.
We never think of our loads as "squib loads". We use that amount of black powder that delivers the goods out to 50 yards, accurately. Target score in tight groups is what counts.
A CAS competitor wouldn't likely go through all that trouble since their target is about 2 to 3 feet tall & 5 to 10 yards away. As long as he hits the plate, it scores.
An example of concentration is to watch competitors at the national matches at Friendship, IN shooting at the same time, standing about three feet apart, and approximately 75 competitors on the firing line at the same time.
Maybe even a flintlock pistol shooter on your left or right, 3 three feet away. A cardboard shield helps to deflect the flash and "spit" coming out of a flint barrel vent, but sometimes a bit gets past the shield.
"Mike OTDP" is acquainted with this activity, since he is a member of the US International Muzzleloading Team, shooting pistol & revolver. He may correct me, but I believe in International Matches around the world, competitors are in separate outdoor "stalls", kinda like an indoor range set-up.
Hope this helps,
Buck
The reason for seating the ball just below the cylinder face is to have the ball closer to the forcing cone of the barrel. Less deformation than if there is, say, a inch gap between the forward "edge" of the ball and the forcing cone.
This is strictly for precision shooting at paper targets with a one-hand hold at both 25 & 50 yards in state, territorial, and national matches. Ninety-nine percent of the national-level competitors are using either the Remington New Model Army .44 caliber, Remington New Model Navy .36 caliber, or Ruger Old Army .44's.
We never think of our loads as "squib loads". We use that amount of black powder that delivers the goods out to 50 yards, accurately. Target score in tight groups is what counts.
A CAS competitor wouldn't likely go through all that trouble since their target is about 2 to 3 feet tall & 5 to 10 yards away. As long as he hits the plate, it scores.
An example of concentration is to watch competitors at the national matches at Friendship, IN shooting at the same time, standing about three feet apart, and approximately 75 competitors on the firing line at the same time.
Maybe even a flintlock pistol shooter on your left or right, 3 three feet away. A cardboard shield helps to deflect the flash and "spit" coming out of a flint barrel vent, but sometimes a bit gets past the shield.
"Mike OTDP" is acquainted with this activity, since he is a member of the US International Muzzleloading Team, shooting pistol & revolver. He may correct me, but I believe in International Matches around the world, competitors are in separate outdoor "stalls", kinda like an indoor range set-up.
Hope this helps,
Buck
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Hello Oorah !
Thank you for your information. You offer a different and useful perspective !
I find it informative and useful ! Your name on this site reminds me of the loud cheers of OORAH at my son's graduation at Parris Island!
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