Pietta 1860 Project:

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tpelle

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I have an older (BH date code = 1996) Pietta 1860 Army. It hasn't been shot all that much - maybe 200 or so times - since new. I recently replaced it with a new (CH date code = 2011?) 1860 Army, also a Pietta, which is MUCH better made.

One of the chronic issues on the "old" pistol is that the cylinder arbor is too short. Being a tinkerer by nature, at one point in the past I drilled the end of the arbor with the intention of tapping it and threading in a stud which I would then file to length to set the arbor to the proper length. However it seems that my drill wandered off center. Looking at it again yesterday (I detail-stripped the pistol and gave it a good cleaning - it seems that I lubed the inside with some sort of grease that had mutated into a black sticky tarry substance.) I decided to make a "project" of this pistol.

I see that VTI has the arbor on their web page for $20.00, plus a little more for the locking pin.

Never having done this before, how difficult is it to replace the arbor?

Will the new arbor be long enough to file down so that the barrel fits properly?

For anyone who has done this, how do you remove the locking pin so as to unscrew the arbor? It appears to be set in a "blind" hole. Is the locking pin soft relative to the frame, so if you drilled it out the drill bit would "follow" the pin?

Is this a project that a reasonable handy person without a machine shop can perform successfully?

Any tips that anyone can offer?
 
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Have you tried shimming it?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=191846

ribbonstone said:
That last is the best way to fix it.

Are other ways, less than "best".

First, getting the pin out can be a major undertaking...that key pin removal can be a pain. If you do this, may think about using a small diameter allen head set screw as your new locking pin...if it ever comes up again, will be glad you did.

Have fixed older guns (brass framed and steel) by getting the center pin out, cleaning up the pin and the threads in the frame, then tinning both, screwing it back in, making a jig to align it, then heating and letting the low temp silver soldier flow. In fact, prefer to do this to brass framed guns as the better fix.


Not sure stud and bearing locktite wouldn't work just as well.
Click to expand...
 
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Yes, actually I have a set of really thin washers Loc-Tite'ed into the bottom of the arbor bore in the barrel right now. It seems to be functional, but I'm sort of OCD about this kind of stuff and would like to fix it right.
 
Arbor replacement could make for a worse fit because how well the new arbor will fit in the end is an unknown.
One has to wonder if the older frames were made as precisely as the newer ones are.
Since the arbor is tight and the gun is functional then maybe it's better to let the sleeping dog lie. :)
 
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I have no Pietta guns and never have so I don't know if they have a straight or tapered arbor.

If tapered then you dont want the end of the arbor to bottom in barrel hole.
If it is straight then Just build up the end of the arbor with a tig welder and then file that down to the right length. Very simple.
 
TheRodDoc said:
I have no Pietta guns and never have so I don't know if they have a straight or tapered arbor.

If tapered then you dont want the end of the arbor to bottom in barrel hole.
If it is straight then Just build up the end of the arbor with a tig welder and then file that down to the right length. Very simple.
Click to expand...

roddoc,
You may think I'm just out to knock you, but I have absolutely, and I mean absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You said something similar on a different thread and at the time I assumed you meant the slot for the wedge was tapered. Tapered is the correct slot shape, it is on the originals and correct reproductions(a lot aren't).

So get out your electric etch-a-sketch and draw us a picture as to what you are talking about and why it is bad...

I have lot's of Ubertis, a second gen Colt (just like you, mine is a a 3rd model Dragoon. Actually both of our pistols are Ubertis just finished in West Hartford), a couple of ASMs, one Palmetta Armory, several Piettas and 3 original Colt's percussion pistols and none of them have tapered arbors or arbor holes.

Now that being said, some have drill angles at the bottom of the arbor holes and some have flat bottoms, is that what you're talking about? If it is, that doesn't matter either. Almost all Ubertis have a vestige of the drill at the center and varying degrees of a flat shoulder at the bottom. Pull your barrel and look at the pocket. But even the ones with almost full diameter drill point marks work fine when bottomed out. They're not going anywhere, they have bottomed out on the frame to the face of the barrel underlug. Unless you repeatedly drive your wedge in with a hammer the fit will last a lifetime.

Regards,
Mako
 
FWIW, I just looked at my new (2011) 1860. The bottom of the arbor bore in the barrel is a surface with a flat shoulder around the bottom of the hole, and a shallow cone-shaped depression in the center left by the drill bit.

The arbor itself on this one is flat on the end.

My old (1996) 1860 has an arbor that is cupped on the end, which is the proper way for it to be made, so that the arbor could be used as a ram to seat the ball with the cylinder removed from the revolver.

On both, the slot in the arbor where the wedge is inserted appears to be broached so that the ends of the slot are parallel to each other, not tapered which would be the proper way.

Pietta has made tremendous advances in their quality, but sometimes I think I'd like to be CEO of Pietta for a month. I'd fix the following things: 1. The cylinder bolt would be properly fitted to the cylinder locking notches. All this would take, with modern CNC machines, would be either making the slots match the stock that the bolts are stamped from, or vise-versa. 2. I'd change the broaching operation of the arbor wedge slot to properly taper it. 3. I'd move the "Blackpowder Only" roll mark and the "F. LLI Pietta" roll mark from the side of the barrel to the bottom under the loading lever. If I had to raise the price of each pistol $50.00, it would be worth it!
 
junkman_01 said:
Worth it to whom? If it was worth it to them, they would have already done it. Raising the price $50/gun would decrease their market somewhat.
Click to expand...
The point that I am trying to make is that Pietta is making a very good product today, and that they have only a few tweaks to go before they are near perfect. After all, so many folks just assume that these Italian replicas are really "kits" that need that last little bit of tuning. With their modern CNC machines, these last few steps could be made at little cost by just going that little bit extra with revised tooling and programming.

Oh, yes, I forgot that I would stop making those "fantasy" guns like the 1851 Navy's in .44, the "Pocket" revolvers on 1851 frames, and the brass-framed "Reb" revolvers that were never actually made back in the day. (Of course, those brass-framed pieces such as the Griswold and Gunnisons, etc. that were actually made would be fine.) Stick to historical versions.
 
tpelle said:
FWIW, I just looked at my new (2011) 1860. The bottom of the arbor bore in the barrel is a surface with a flat shoulder around the bottom of the hole, and a shallow cone-shaped depression in the center left by the drill bit.

The arbor itself on this one is flat on the end.

My old (1996) 1860 has an arbor that is cupped on the end, which is the proper way for it to be made, so that the arbor could be used as a ram to seat the ball with the cylinder removed from the revolver...
Click to expand...

Tepelle,
The arbor hole bottom on the pistol you inspected is as expected... Almost all of them are that way.

Now as far as the arbor end goes, the originals all had flat ended arbors with an edge chamfer to facilitate reassembly. You are confusing the loading system of the Paterson revolvers with all of the Colt's revolvers following the addition of the attached loading lever.

Furthermore, the arbor on an 1860 will fit in the chamber of an Army model, but the frame and arbor are carry overs from the 1851 model. The arbors on '51s, '60s and '61s run Ø.430 which will fit in the .44 caliber chamber but not the pistol it was originally designed for. The arbor was designed to be flat, and should be flat. The arbor end was designed to be in contact with the bottom of the arbor hole when the wedge is in place. There may be a line to line fit, a thousandths or two clearance or up to a few thousands of interference which will spring load the wedge. They all work and unless you have more than about .002" of clearance the fit is as designed.

I have some great graphics that show all of this but I'm not posting them on this forum anymore. If you are interested, PM me and I will direct you to another forum where they are posted.

~Mako
 
Really! Not disputing what you say, but I thought that being able to use the arbor as a reloading ram was a feature of ALL of Colt's revolvers. At least I've seen it mentioned not only for the Patersons, but for the Wells Fargo pocket models as well (which had no loading ram).

I only own 1860's in terms of Colt replicas, but I assumed that was true across the line.
 
On my Pietta's, the arbor fit is more like the bottom Colt version in your depiction.

The shape of the hole at the bottom of the arbor bore is a little different, with the bottom of the hole having a flat shoulder or shelf around the perimeter, but then having the shallow cone-shaped depression in the middle.
 
Tepelle,

So is pretty much everyone else's.

I've only ever read of one other person claiming that arbor O.D.s were intentionally manufactured tapered. That was the first time I ever heard of "tapered" arbors proposed as a feature. I have heard of worn arbors having tapor, but not intentionally manufactured that way. That was last year a bit before the first time roddoc brought it up as a feature on Ubertis and ASMs. Several people on this forum were in that conversation over on the muzzleloading forum. It didn't make sense then, and it still doesn't now.

I have many colt's pattern percussion pistols. Fingers McGee and a few others have more than I do and I'll bet Fingers has never seen tapered arbors on Ubertis or any of his Gen 2 Colt's. My ASM Walker as well as the two '61 ASM conversions I have don't have tapered arbors either.

Roddoc, measure the arbor from your 2nd Gen Colt's '51 as well. It is basically a Uberti that was shipped over as parts and then finished and assembled in the U.S., the finish is better and it is marked as a Colt which makes it nice; but is shares dimensions and features with the Ubertis.

Roddoc, you seem to have rather unique guns that none of the rest of us have. This isn't the first time you've scooped us on unique features on your pistols.

I'm at a loss, it would be extremely difficult to manufacture revolvers and make them fit with features like a tapered pin in the assembly axis. It basically violates every good design for manufacturing practice I have ever been taught or heard of. And I have been doing that line of work for many decades. Matching tapers requires precision ground and usually lapped engagement features if an fixed position along an axis is to be attained. Besides it being terribly impractical and impossibly expensive for a massed produced item like an Italian reproduction I have also been shooting cap and ball revolvers for over four decades and I have never seen a tapered arbor as you describe.

Measure your arbors at the point where they enter the arbor hole and at the end before the edge break, I want to get a feeling for the amount of taper you are talking about. If you have access to some gage pins measure the arbor hole at the depth the arbor stops and report the largest pin that will fit.

I have another observation, I just looked at your illustration again and I noticed your third relationship from the top is labeled "Colt," I'm assuming that is from your 2nd Generation '51. I just want to let you know that the original Colt's revolvers bottom out in the hole. The reason your arbor doesn't bottom out is that Uberti made them all shorter and Colt's just assembled them as received. It is the one feature on the Ubertis that they have taken a short cut on and others like Pietta do a better job on in their reproductions.

I think if you look in your arbor hole again you will see your arbor hole on the Colt is not as you illustrated it, but as Tepelle and I described it. It will have a flat shoulder and the vestige of the drill mark or as Tepelle described it a small conical feature at the bottom.

If you have tapered arbors it is not an intentional feature. It is hard enough to match the end of the arbor to the bottom of the hole. When you introduce taper along an axis any variation on a shallow taper changes the length radically. Lay it out for yourself. Don't use the gross tapers you used in your illustration use the tapers you think your arbors are and you will see what I mean it is impractical on a mass production scale on revolvers of the quality we are talking about.

~Mako
 
Jeeeesss.

They were made tapered!

And I already told you my 51 arbor is not made by Uberti. It is a straight arbor faced off in a lathe then the sharp corner beveled slightly.

View attachment 142967
 
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I know the arbor should bottom out in the hole. And my 2nd gen does. If you look again at my drawing you will see the colt style that doesn't is X ed out meaning WRONG.
The one below it is right. Put on your glasses.
 
TheRodDoc said:
Jeeeesss.

They were made tapered!

And I already told you my 51 arbor is not made by Uberti. It is a straight arbor faced off in a lathe then the sharp corner beveled slightly.

View attachment 142967
Click to expand...
Roddoc,
All of the Uberti Arbors and the 2nd Gen Colt's and the Piettas and the ASMs and the Palmetto Armories, the originals and every other reproduction look just like that.

If your arbor was not made by Uberti, then who made it, Martians?


I know you told us you saw them being made at the Colt facility. Tell me which building it was in and what other firearms were being made there? Seriously, if you made that pilgrimage you should remember. You see I know the exact building they were finished and assembled, let's see if you know. The rest of us on this forum who have 2nd gen Colts will tell you our parts were made in Italy and shipped over for assembly. How did you get them to make you a custom arbor?
 
TheRodDoc said:
I know the arbor should bottom out in the hole. And my 2nd gen does. If you look again at my drawing you will see the colt style that doesn't is X ed out meaning WRONG.
The one below it is right. Put on your glasses.
Click to expand...
Roddoc,

Your illustrations are very confusing, for instance the straight taper arbor ends have conical points and you show a full drilled bottom in your arbor holes. Your labeling is confusing as well, you only have Colt on the third view.

It's not a matter of glasses, don't blame the audience for a poor presentation.
 
TheRodDoc said:
Here is another guy that knows as I do about the tapered arbors.

denster

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=531877
Click to expand...
Roddoc,
Go back and read it again. He is talking about the taper in the wedge slot.



I'm Sorry, you are right, he is saying that, and it seems most of the responders don't realize that is what he is talking about. I wish Denster would speak up again, now I want to know what taper he was observing. This is all news to me.
 
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Roddoc,
I just read it again and I apologize...

He's just as mixed up as I am now. It seems that the only person who knew what he was talking about was arcticap and he said he heard it from some other forum. He kept jumping back and forth and then illustrating the wedge slot.

So now you get to have the final word.

Measure your arbor and report those dimensions. Do it on those Ubertis with the tapered arbors. Measure your arbor holes, but only do it if you are going to do it right, We need real numbers, you have to use pin gages, if you don;t have them PM me and I'll send the sizes you will need. It will be around Ø.430, I'll send about ten in .001" increments to cover what you need, unless you report more taper on your arbor than that.

Be sure to measure the hole diameter at the depth the arbor goes to and then the entrance hole about .02" in.

This should be interesting...

~Mako
 
Excuse me for interrupting, but all the talk about tapers has me thinking about The Power of the Wedge. Does anyone know what the taper angle is on the wedge? I assume it's tapered on both sides?

Thanks,

Jason
 
This will be some weak side help for embattled Roddoc.

I wrote in another post that I used washer spacers to lengthen the arbors on my A.Uberti Navy and Army. The proof house mark for the Navy is AF (1980) and for the Army AE (1979). If that matters.

The Navy arbor dia. measures .0422 in. immediately above the frame end, and .0421 at the end of the arbor.

The Army arbor dia. measures .0423 in. immediately above the frame end, and .0419 at the end of the arbor.

“End of the arbor” means 1/32 in. back from the end because of a radius I put on both gun’s arbor ends. Exclusive of the washers.

I could not measure the width of the holes into which the arbors entered. So no help there, Doc. Don’t know if either hole is tapered.

But there is some slight taper on my two Uberti’s arbors. But that is only half the story.

Doc, what are your gun’s numbers?
 
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