Pietta Bolts - Problems and Questions

[dirt-poor]

Since Pietta went to CNC machining, their internal parts are usually pretty easy to deal with. Most newer action parts for most newer revolvers drop in and function well with little or no fitting. Not always.

Not with a particular 1851 Navy I picked up recently that was made in 2016. I got it cheap as a set of disassembled components with some smaller parts missing. Didn't foresee any problem with that, but replacing the bolt with a new one was a wasted effort except for what I learned from it. In this frame, the currently available Pietta (1851-1861-1860) bolt is like a part made for some other gun.

The first problem was that the inner contour of the hook on the leg was not quite in alignment with the cam when all new action parts were installed. That was mostly solved by deepening the contour and opening it up a little wider from end to end. The bolt was then able to function, but still tended to bind on the edge of the cam rather than sliding onto it to reset itself when de-cocking. In dry firing, it snapped into place every time, so maybe only some further tweaking would be needed.

Not so sure that any further tweaking could fix the second problem. The legs are too short. The bolt drops early and peens the cylinder where it hits before reaching the lead-in.

While taking a break from the frustration, I looked through a box of used Pietta parts and found an older bolt that looks a little different and has longer legs. So I tried it out. It worked immediately and perfectly in this frame. The older bolt is pictured above a new, unmodified bolt for comparison.


I'd like to find another bolt like the older one to keep as a spare for this revolver, or to have on hand if needed for some other Pietta revolver that might work better with it.

But where would they be found? What alternatives are there if a certain necessary bolt is no longer commercially available? Any comments or suggestions on installing new bolts in Piettas that came with older-style bolts? Has anyone had success in adapting a bolt made by one manufacturer to a revolver made by another?

 

[45 Dragoon]

Your problem with the reset is the sharp corner on the top of the left arm, it needs to be chamfered so as the cam is introduced, it won't bind.

Another huge help would be to thin the left arm (from the inside) considerably (like 1/2 the thickness!!) not to mention extend its length by cutting it the rest of the way forward to the bolt head. That will allow it to flex ( forever) and do its job.

Mike

 

[dirt-poor]

Your problem with the reset is the sharp corner on the top of the left arm, it needs to be chamfered so as the cam is introduced, it won't bind.

Another huge help would be to thin the left arm (from the inside) considerably (like 1/2 the thickness!!) not to mention extend its length by cutting it the rest of the way forward to the bolt head. That will allow it to flex ( forever) and do its job.

Mike

Wow, it didn't take very many words for you to make some excellent points. I understand the logic in what you're saying and definitely appreciate it. Was not finding much of value in searching the internet for single action bolt-fitting advice. Nothing at all (of course) referring to changes in Piettas bolts over the years.

After my unexpected experience with a 2016 frame, I've been wondering how suitable the current bolts are for old revolvers. If you put a new bolt in a pre-CNC Pietta revolver, do you use one such as they currently produce?

 

[hawg]

Pietta went to CNC long before 2016. Sounds like you got a frame and a bag of mix n match parts.

 

[44 Dave]

Was given advice by one of our members to get Uberti parts and fit them as they are better metal. When in doubt order 1 of each.

 

[dirt-poor]

Pietta went to CNC long before 2016. Sounds like you got a frame and a bag of mix n match parts.

Yeah, I think they did it in about 2002. I started by putting in all new action parts. There's obviously something funny about the frame. Don't know what. Only that the Pietta bolt that works best with it is from a generation of bolts, so to speak, earlier than the ones currently made.

In wondering about how the new bolts would do in "old" revolvers, I mean 20 or 30 years old or even older, to times when they were hand fit.

 

[dirt-poor]

Was given advice by one of our members to get Uberti parts and fit them as they are better metal. When in doubt order 1 of each.

I have a couple on hand. Spares for an Uberti 1861 made in 1993. So they're about that old. I think I'll go find them and do a visual comparison.

 

[hawg]

Yeah, I think they did it in about 2002. I started by putting in all new action parts. There's obviously something funny about the frame. Don't know what. Only that the Pietta bolt that works best with it is from a generation of bolts, so to speak, earlier than the ones currently made.

In wondering about how the new bolts would do in "old" revolvers, I mean 20 or 30 years old or even older, to times when they were hand fit.

Bolts old or new are generally not a drop in fit. I do know Pietta has used at least five different hands over the years.

 

[dirt-poor]

Bolts old or new are generally not a drop in fit. I do know Pietta has used at least five different hands over the years.

Well they certainly needed to be hand fit in times past, even from the factory sometimes. I spent many hours back in the early nineties trying to fit hands and/or bolts in all the percussion revolvers I had at the time - 1 Pietta, 1 Uberii, and 1 ASM. Fitting a new hand in the ASM Walker was especially difficult as I recall.

Anyway, I currently have two Pietta Navies that were made in 2021 and a Pietta Remington from 2017. In experimenting with them, I tried swapping out their internal parts with sets of new parts to see what kind of fitting would be required, maybe so as to fit spare parts in advance. With those three guns, no work was needed for them to function properly.

"Pietta has used at least five different hands over the years." Thanks, that's the kind of info I've been wanting to find. Maybe there have been that many bolt variations also.

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

@dirt-poor do you have a picture of your parts bag gun? I have a ASM 1860 army made in 1984 that I purchased on gunbroker as a literal rust bucket that i soaked in Evaporust for a few days then reblued and rebuilt with a mixmatch of a some ASM parts bought off ebay.
I rebuilt it just to have a fun little project and was actually gonna use it as a wall hanger of sorts. I decided to at least shoot it once before it got retired to the wall and much to my amazement it put 5 .457 roundballs into a cloverleaf pattern shooting off hand duelist style at 15 yards. My jaw literally hit the floor. I was amazed. The old girl being a mix of Ebay parts and and a severely pitted bore actually shot tighter groups then ANYTHING i own.

 

[Navy Six 2]

Blackpowderwarrior, I had to laugh at your ASM 1860 and its accuracy. Years ago I had a ASM brass frame 1851 in 44 that shot just like you described. I actually won a couple of local target matches with it.

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

Blackpowderwarrior, I had to laugh at your ASM 1860 and its accuracy. Years ago I had a ASM brass frame 1851 in 44 that shot just like you described. I actually won a couple of local target matches with it.

After that happened I bought 2 more ASM's and now have a few nice piettas for sale.

I'm sold on 1980's ASM . they feel better in my hand and shoot some outstanding groups.

 

[dirt-poor]

@dirt-poor do you have a picture of your parts bag gun? I have a ASM 1860 army made in 1984 that I purchased on gunbroker as a literal rust bucket that i soaked in Evaporust for a few days then reblued and rebuilt with a mixmatch of a some ASM parts bought off ebay.
I rebuilt it just to have a fun little project and was actually gonna use it as a wall hanger of sorts. I decided to at least shoot it once before it got retired to the wall and much to my amazement it put 5 .457 roundballs into a cloverleaf pattern shooting off hand duelist style at 15 yards. My jaw literally hit the floor. I was amazed. The old girl being a mix of Ebay parts and and a severely pitted bore actually shot tighter groups then ANYTHING i own.

Hi BlackPowderWarrior, it's in good working order now, but not photo ready. I'm doing some cosmetic work on it. Congratulations on your success in extending the life of a good old ASM!

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Congratulations to you both on those ASMs, they did make some decent pistols. Just be sure to fix the arbor and the timing. I personally own 6 ASMs. All but one are excellent quality made even better after getting the arbors fixed and the action tuned.

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

Congratulations to you both on those ASMs, they did make some decent pistols. Just be sure to fix the arbor and the timing. I personally own 6 ASMs. All but one are excellent quality made even better after getting the arbors fixed and the action tuned.

very first thing i did was correct the short arbor. all 3 ASM that i own had the same issue.

 

[dirt-poor]

The first percussion revolver I ever had or shot was an ASM Walker. It was somewhat beat up when I got it with scratches and a badly cracked grip. It had a short arbor also, but I didn't know what that was all about back then; only that the cylinder would contact the forcing cone if the wedge was tapped in too far. I assumed that was normal.

I didn't have that gun for long, but it was significant as the beginning of a never-ending fascination with percussion revolvers. And I'll never forget how much fun I had with it. Twenty years later, I still regretted trading it.

Just a few years ago, I saw a much prettier ASM Walker made in 1983 and still in unfired condition on Gunbroker, By this time, I was more exclusively into .36-caliber revolvers, but I decided impulsively to jump on that auction. The gun functions perfectly with no issues, and the short arbor was an easy fix.

 

[dirt-poor]

Here's an update to this old thread for anyone who might have been interested or curious. Maybe there are other percussion revolvers out there with this same issue.

After a recent, closer examination of the gun, I determined that the bolt problem was actually a frame problem. Every new Pietta bolt I had tried to fit (to the point of overdoing it) was unable to reset when de-cocking. The reset happened only when assisted by the momentum of the hammer and/or the jolt in the frame when live or dry firing.

That was because the channel in the recoil shield under the hammer had some slightly high areas that prevented the hammer from traveling forward far enough when de-cocking to allow the hook of the bolt leg (or arm) to move over the outer edge of the cam.

I isolated the high spots with graphite on the underside of the hammer and strips of paper fit in the channel. After they were filed down, a new, unmodified Pietta bolt was able to function properly as a drop-in part. It functioned even better with minor adjustments. No more early drop onto the cylinder when cocking. (The bolt referenced above that just happened to work well with this revolver still works well with it.)

 

[45 Dragoon]

Here's an update to this old thread for anyone who might have been interested or curious. Maybe there are other percussion revolvers out there with this same issue.

After a recent, closer examination of the gun, I determined that the bolt problem was actually a frame problem. Every new Pietta bolt I had tried to fit (to the point of overdoing it) was unable to reset when de-cocking. The reset happened only when assisted by the momentum of the hammer and/or the jolt in the frame when live or dry firing.

That was because the channel in the recoil shield under the hammer had some slightly high areas that prevented the hammer from traveling forward far enough when de-cocking to allow the hook of the bolt leg (or arm) to move over the outer edge of the cam.
)

Glad you figured out some of the mechanics of it. That's not always the best situation though. The frame on any open-top can be "adjusted" . . . usually for allowing the hammer face to meet the cone or nipple. The "adjustment" for reset should have been on the oversized "replacement" part ( which is why they're oversized). You say it would reset if you jarred the frame . . . just a slight dressing of the reset cut ( crescent on the arm for the cam ) would have been "the norm". No harm no foul though just pointing out you can change a light bulb by turning the bulb or turning the lamp . . . your choice.

BTW, the two bolts pictured at the beginning of this thread are different because they are for different revolvers. The top one is for a Pietta made '73 Model P. The lower one is for the open-tops.

Mike

By the way

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

You done good! I have run into similar problems myself with bolts not resetting. Most of the time I end up removing some material from the left leg of the bolt or adding a shim to the frame, a thing I don't normally do. It can be an irritating process to get one right when it's not real obvious what's going on. By the way my bench is clear for anyone wanting a revolver tuned or repaired, PM me if interested.

 

[dirt-poor]

45 Dragoon and Jackrabbit1957, thanks for the comments and info.

It's enlightening to be informed that the bolt which worked properly in this gun is really an 1873 part. That must be why I couldn't find one exactly like it when looking for earlier versions of the Pietta open-top percussion bolt. In any case, it's been an outstanding alternative.

A bolt problem was ruled out and the channel problem confirmed by comparing the faulty bolt/hammer action in this frame with the action of the same bolt and hammer in another Pietta 1851 frame. The only parts involved in checking that were a new, unmodified bolt and hammer, their screws, and the otherwise empty frames. When manipulating the parts with my left hand working the hammer and my right index finger serving as a bolt spring, it was very easy to observe why a smooth reset occurred in one frame, but not the other.

It didn't take much of an irregularity to cause the malfunction, and it didn't take much effort to fix, once it was identified. Afterwards, no fitting or modification of the bolt was needed to make it work in either frame. Minor adjustments were optional.

 

[45 Dragoon]

45 Dragoon and Jackrabbit1957, thanks for the comments and info.

It's enlightening to be informed that the bolt which worked properly in this gun is really an 1873 part. That must be why I couldn't find one exactly like it when looking for earlier versions of the Pietta open-top percussion bolt. In any case, it's been an outstanding alternative.

A bolt problem was ruled out and the channel problem confirmed by comparing the faulty bolt/hammer action in this frame with the action of the same bolt and hammer in another Pietta 1851 frame. The only parts involved in checking that were a new, unmodified bolt and hammer, their screws, and the otherwise empty frames. When manipulating the parts with my left hand working the hammer and my right index finger serving as a bolt spring, it was very easy to observe why a smooth reset occurred in one frame, but not the other.

It didn't take much of an irregularity to cause the malfunction, and it didn't take much effort to fix, once it was identified. Afterwards, no fitting or modification of the bolt was needed to make it work in either frame. Minor adjustments were optional.

Ok well, lol!! Putting parts from one revolver into another to check them is like me trying on shoes from "Joe Blow" to see if they'll fit!!!

The whole point of "tuning" is the fact that screw pin holes aren't exactly perfectly drilled, screw pins themselves are warped to a certain degree, parts variation, . . .

After all that, adjusting the action parts for perfect timing ( not just "functioning") makes " parts swapping" highly unlikely.

These revolvers were designed for "fitting" (per - directive/instruction) because of manufacturing processes. Even CNC SA's have to have fitting involved just to get the product out the door. Replacement parts are over size and should be fitted instead of the other way around. Go buy a lottery ticket . . .

Mike

 

[dirt-poor]

Ok well, lol!! Putting parts from one revolver into another to check them is like me trying on shoes from "Joe Blow" to see if they'll fit!!!

The whole point of "tuning" is the fact that screw pin holes aren't exactly perfectly drilled, screw pins themselves are warped to a certain degree, parts variation, . . .

After all that, adjusting the action parts for perfect timing ( not just "functioning") makes " parts swapping" highly unlikely.

These revolvers were designed for "fitting" (per - directive/instruction) because of manufacturing processes. Even CNC SA's have to have fitting involved just to get the product out the door. Replacement parts are over size and should be fitted instead of the other way around. Go buy a lottery ticket . . .

Mike

You didn't read it carefully. The bolt and hammer I used for the comparison were new, as in right from the factory. They weren't from one revolver to another. And they weren't oversized either. Pietta doesn't make their action parts like it was done in the old days. They generally go in as drop-in parts, and can then be adjusted if needed for better operation.

And this was not an exercise in tuning. It was done to confirm a problem in the frame, which it did.

 

[45 Dragoon]

You didn't read it carefully. The bolt and hammer I used for the comparison were new, as in right from the factory. They weren't from one revolver to another. And they weren't oversized either. Pietta doesn't make their action parts like it was done in the old days. They generally go in as drop-in parts, and can then be adjusted if needed for better operation.

And this was not an exercise in tuning. It was done to confirm a problem in the frame, which it did.

Bottom line is, you don't correct reset by filing the frame. You correct it by clearancing the bolt arm.
What if the hammer was all the way down on the nipple with no reset? Would you file the hammer face?

Believe it or not, the parts may be "drop" in but only as far as function goes. I tune more Piettas than any other make. I'm sure most of it is because they are the least expensive but they cost less for a reason. They always have late bolt drop, thick a$$ bolt arms , too tall cams . . . they are "assembly line" products.
That being the case, it helps to know how to go through them to correct the fit of each part to the frame the parts are in. Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on Colt Single Actions can teach you what to do. That is what I'm trying to get across to you.

Mike

 

[dirt-poor]

Bottom line is, you don't correct reset by filing the frame. You correct it by clearancing the bolt arm.
What if the hammer was all the way down on the nipple with no reset? Would you file the hammer face?

Believe it or not, the parts may be "drop" in but only as far as function goes. I tune more Piettas than any other make. I'm sure most of it is because they are the least expensive but they cost less for a reason. They always have late bolt drop, thick a$$ bolt arms , too tall cams . . . they are "assembly line" products.
That being the case, it helps to know how to go through them to correct the fit of each part to the frame the parts are in. Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on Colt Single Actions can teach you what to do. That is what I'm trying to get across to you.

Mike

Everything you're saying here is correct. And the process of fitting parts to guns rather than guns to parts is normally the proper procedure; smaller parts to main components. I fully agree.

I've been shooting and working on percussion revolvers for 30 years, learning mostly out of necessity due in large part to the historical out-of-the-box issues they have. I have no expertise comparable to yours or Kuhnhausen's, but I've fit and replaced a lot of parts over the years and had all go well, even when dealing with a few truly oversized, ASM parts.

But this was different. The proper "drop-in" bolts would not function as drop-ins, and I repeatedly failed to make them work entirely as they should with the various corrective modifications mentioned in this thread. Things I've done before. Having never had so much trouble with a bolt, I could only suspect that the real issue was in this particular frame. And then, just a slight adjustment to it made everything function as it should. Not the normal way to go, but it worked.

It's apparent to me that this frame was not quite right. Maybe it was also apparent to the previous owner, who sold me the gun as a bag of loose parts with no bolt included.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Ahh, you had a basket case! Those are always fun, have done a few of them too. I've got lucky once or twice on some Uberti parts being drop in fit but for the most part they require some fitting. Another thing to watch for on Pietta open tops is the wedge fit, have seen several that the arbor slot was not quite wide enough causing the wedge to bind. This does the same thing as the short arbor on the Uberti pistols.