Pistol Competition for Winter - High Power Handgun

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ReadyontheRight

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Minnesota - nine months of ice and snow...three mo
My trap team is done with trying to shoot Fall trap. Too many nights of driving 45 minutes to get pelted with snowflakes late in the season. And the Winter league is simply brutal.

So we have been talking about some sort of pistol competition when our summer league is over if a few weeks.

We all have home defense-type pistols in 9mm or .45acp.

No one has a real interest in the "run & shoot" type of games. The guys who do not have a 1911 or a .22 are not interested in spending $1000+ to do NRA bullseye.

A few of us shoot high power rifle. Why is there not a similar competition for pistols?

A pistol competiton where a person can use their standard home defense pistol, caliber does not matter - as long as it is "high power", no holsters or running are involved (due to the rules at many ranges), accuracy is valued over speed, and you can score with a standard paper target.

I am thinking something along the lines of...

-Standard targets (NRA Bullseye targets perhaps)
-10 yards slow fire
-10 yards rapid fire
-25 yards slow fire
-25 yards rapid fire
-5 yards rapid fire

-Stance does not matter - one-handed NRA Bullseye, two-handed weaver stance - Who cares? What works for you?
-10 shots each stage
-Total of 50 shots
-Use any defensive handgun you like - we establish a minimum caliber - I am thinking .38spl / 9mm as a minimum caliber. We would have to approve/disapprove calibers
-Iron sights
-Rapid fire allows (just barely) enough time for revolver reloads

I am open to suggestions, but I want to keep it simple and based on home-defense types of handguns.

I am calling it "High Power Handgun".

Since we have the Internet...we could start this as an online league.
-Teams of 5 (can be online/virtual teams)
-Self-scoring
-Completed targets are scanned in with scoring
-Online member voting for disputed targets
-10 weeks of shooting per season - you can shoot all at one if you want to.
-Regional and national championships if it get popular enough

What do you think?
 
I am calling it "high power handgun" to copy the idea of high power rifle. The scoring and concept of shooting at a round paper target is the same. Essentially, the idea is to have a match for people to get out and shoot their home defense weapons. One gun. No holsters, no fast draws, no fast reloads, no speed shooting.

Make it do-able and safe at most ranges without setting up special targets or timers; and offer a lot of shooting, not a lot of waiting.

How about this:

-Standard target - probably NRA B-16 25 yard slow fire. Nice big black target and big X ring. Although some of the 6-ring would be lost when scanning.
-5 clean paper targets and 35 rounds per match
-Target #1 - Sighters: 5 shots at 25 yards
-Target #2 - 10 shots at 25 yards ~3 minutes slow fire
-Target #3 - 10 shots at 10 yards ~3 minutes slow fire
-Target #4 - 5 shots at 5 yards ~ 1 minute rapid fire
-Target #5 - 5 shots at 5 yards ~ 1 minute rapid fire
-If you have a team, score for each other, not for yourself.
-Since this is virtual, scoring will be on your honor. "Character is Who We Are When No One is Watching"

-Classes - "Duty Class" for .38/9mm, "Heavy Duty Class" for .40/.45, "Hunting Class" for .44mag and up.
-".357mag Hunting"; ".22lr" might be worthy of their own classes. More classes, more prizes!

Some questions:
-How are the times? 3 minutes for slow and 1 minute for rapid fire?
-Is scoring 10 rounds at a time going to be a problem? I would rather not score each shot to keep this easy and make the targets scan-able.
-Do many folks have a problem with a 25 yard range? We could make it shorter, but I would prefer to keep it at 25 yards.
-Would you pull together a team and shoot a match a week?
-What else should I change or include to make this interesting and fun so you would shoot?
 
I kinda get the tie in to High Power Rifle, but to be a mirror of that competition shouldn't you have a defined stance for each stage?

Something like:

slow fire/long range.... sitting, supported
a seated stage
rapid fire any range... standing, use one or both hands
perhaps even a prone stage (with shooter either classic prone, or back down - shoulderblades touching the ground - potentially legs or knees raise for support)
 
to be a mirror of that competition shouldn't you have a defined stance for each stage
Click to expand...
Sounds right ... and that causes it to revert to what I said above - PPC. Throwing in a couple of sighters or altering the time allowances a little doesn't create a new discipline.
/B
 
Doesn't PPC require holsters, shooting from the left side/right side of a barricade and speed loading? PPC also goes out to 50 yards. Includes sitting and prone.

My indoor range does not allow any of these things. (Well - speed loading is OK)

"ELIGIBILITY: NRA Rule 2.4- Law Enforcement Officers, active or retired. Includes full time: law enforcement officers, Police Firearms Instructors, Transit Police, Penal Institution Guards, Industrial Police (to include bank Guards and Armored and Express Company Guards.) NRA membership is NOT required for any NRA PPC matches, but is STRONGLY encouraged. You may join at the match."

There are no PPC events in Minnesota that I can find. I am not a LEO, so I don't see how or why I would get into PPC.

I just don't see how PPC meets the scenario I am trying to fill. Regular people shooting their home defense handguns in a simple competition based on scoring 10X-type round targets.

I guess I could start some sort of simplified PPC event in Minnesota, but I would rather keep it simpler. And I bet there are a few PPC bureaucratic hoops through which I have no desire to jump. None of us could advance anywhere since I only know a few LEOs. LEOs have plenty of opportunities to shoot and don't need to join such a league to practice.
 
Something like:

slow fire/long range.... sitting, supported
a seated stage
rapid fire any range... standing, use one or both hands
perhaps even a prone stage (with shooter either classic prone, or back down - shoulderblades touching the ground - potentially legs or knees raise for support)
Click to expand...

I would like to keep this a standing, unsupported event. I am not sure what kind of indoor ranges you all have, but I cannot shoot prone or seated on the ground at mine. We can shoot seated on a rest, but I do not see the point of including such shooting in a competition. I also don't see why you would want to shoot a handgun in these positions.

The tie to High Power Rifle is more along the lines of the relatively simple scoring and "High Power Pistol" is a good, fairly descriptive name. And before I get the ".38 Special isn't very 'High Power' " comments, neither is a .223 and neither is a 9mm Browning High Power...but I sure think of each as "High Power" enough for defensive purposes and definitely if I was on the dangerous end of the weapon.
 
I am not sure what niche this fills that isn't filled by another sport.
Click to expand...

I am open to your ideas on where my Trap buddies in Minnesota can shoot their defensive pistols indoors in a weekly competitive event.

-NRA Bullseye requires a 1911 - which only a few of us have. It also requires a one-handed shooting stance.
-PPC is noted above - we are not LEOs
-Everything else requires either speed shooting, quick draw, stages of moving and shooting that are not availble at many indoor ranges or

I want to set up a nice, easy competitive game to help people practice shooting targets with their home defense weapon. If you can point me to a match in Minnesota that fills this need, I will stop trying to be creative.
 
-NRA Bullseye requires a 1911
Click to expand...

Bullseye does not require a 1911, it just so happens to be the most popular choice for the Centerfire and .45 ACP portion of the match.

It also requires a one-handed shooting stance.
Click to expand...

Therein lies the true challenge of Bullseye.

-PPC is noted above - we are not LEOs
Click to expand...

Even though PPC is officially limited to only LEO's, unofficially, many citizens compete in these matches.

-Everything else requires either speed shooting...
Click to expand...

I am aware of no rules in IDPA, IPSC, 3Gun, Steel Challenge, or any other practical shooting sport that require "speed shooting" on the part of a competitor. All of these sports stress that a competitor should shoot at whatever speed allows them to be safe and accurate.

..quick draw...
Click to expand...

Again, none of these sports require a competitor to "quick draw." They may require or encourage drawing from the holster, but none of them force a shooter to draw faster than he is capable of doing safely and effectively.

...stages of moving and shooting...
Click to expand...

Steel Challenge has only one stage that requires a competitor to move while on the clock, and for local matches, you could simply omit that one. Splatter traps are available to keep spall from damaging an indoor range.

...that are not availble at many indoor ranges...
Click to expand...

Have you spoken to the owner of your local indoor range about setting up an after-hours match? The local indoor range here runs a two-stage IPSC match twice a month on the days when they're closed to the public. It seems to me that no rational range owner would object to the extra income that would be brought in from having a regular stable of competitive shooters paying a match fee once or twice a month.

I want to set up a nice, easy competitive game to help people practice shooting targets with their home defense weapon.
Click to expand...

So, what skill is this building or reinforcing? There are plenty of arguments about practical shooting not being realistic, but at the very least, IDPA, IPSC, etc. stress gun handling skills that should be second nature for all of us. By removing things such as movement, draws, reloading, or shooting with a timer, you're doing away with important skills we should all have.
 
you could always do pin shooting. Get some used pins from a local alley, set up a table and have at it
 
So, what skill is this building or reinforcing?
Click to expand...

Loading, aiming, breath control, trigger control, sight placement, sight picture. Shooting a weapon competitively and often.

I think shooting 30 scored shots downrange at a human center-of-mass-sized target every week will build basic shooting skills better than not doing so.

I want this to be easy. I don't want to shoot after hours. I dont want the range or me to buy special equipment. I don't want everyone participating online to go and buy steel targets, splatter traps and explain spall to their range owner.

Movement, draws, reloading, and shooting with a timer may be second nature to many folks here, but they are daunting to new pistol owners. And just plain old not available at most indoor ranges. I cannot officially draw and shoot from a holster at any ranges where I shoot. And I have no desire to do so with my home defense gun.

New shooters just want to shoot - preferably in a league so there is some sense of competition and improvement.

At my local indoor range there is only one NRA Bullseye event each month. On weekends. I can't shoot on weekends - I spend time with my family then. I would rather shoot weekly and during the regular shooting week without some special change-over for the range.

This event is not aimed at taking market share from PPC, NRA, IDPA, IPSC, CAS or any other alphabet soup event. It is aimed at making a new market of gun owners who do not shoot competitively.

I do NOT see any league that really caters to the new pistol shooter. As a matter of fact, they all seem to look down upon the new pistol shooter, unless he or she has joined their particular cult.

Some of my buddies only have 9mm guns. That's all they want. These are guys who kick ass at Trap with 870s and Mossberg 500s. They don't want to go to the national matches...they just want to become more proficient and have fun.

Maybe a 1911 is not a requirement for NRA Bullseye, but I sure got that impression when I went to training for it a few years ago. My buddy was told there that he made a mistake buying his new H&K USP. Regardless, does 9mm work for all stages? And why in the heck would anyone want a new pistol shooter trying to master a weapon to shoot one-handed (unless they want to)?

I am not trying to denegrate current leagues. They are fine, but they leave a lot of handgun owners cold and confused.

I want to find something more compelling than what's out there for the more casual shooter who wants to just get out and shoot his/her ONE, basic pistol at standard targets, at a standard gun range in a competitive situation. I still see no other event that meets this criteria without major changes.
 
I think I understand what you want. Between the cost of ammo and gas as well as personal and professional time pressures, it's tough to get to the range and it'd be even tougher to formally compete. Sure, they may not offer the same match pressure, but they're fun and offer some variety.

If your plan is to start this as an on-line competition, my suggestion would be to put something simple together and simply post it as a fun shoot within this subforum. It'd be a good litmus test: If there's enough interest, there'll be participation. If not, there's no need to go further. At least you and your buds ought to be able to use it.

Alternatively, <insert blatant plug here> you and your buds could participate in the monthly Handgun Match, stickied at the top of the General Discussion sub-forum. I believe this monthly match is, in essence, what you're describing. The CoF changes on a monthly basis. The participation for August was low, but I have something planned for September that ought to be neat. Stay tuned.

http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Either way, some suggestions are:

1. Keep it simple. Very simple. Rules and a CoF that are even perceived to be complicated will deter participation.

2. Before posting it, try it yourself to see how it "flows" at the range.

3. In my experience, posting the target as a pdf is best. If you post a jpg or a link, the first responder will reply that they can't open the target, which is a complication, in which case, rule #1 kicks in.

4. As far as suggestions for the CoF, I offered some in my TFL reply, but here'd, I'd add that you could include 1-handed and weak-hand shooting as well to test overall accuracy. If you're going to shoot a B-16 at close range, maybe 1-handed/weak hand shooting would help the point spread a bit. Below is a link to a Fun Shoot I hosted a little while ago that tested this. It was challenging. Again, though, keep rule #1 in mind.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=419270&highlight=fun+shoot

5. Call it something other than "High Power Handgun". As you can see already, it's already confused people.

6. Don't sweat the "defense pistol only" thing. For one thing, IME, you'll be struggling to get participation in the first place, and exclusionary rules won't help (see #1). Also, those with match grade target pistols (who shoot them well) often formally compete and aren't likely to participate anyway. Finally, as a corollary to this point, those that would participate wouldn't be helped that much by high dollar equipment. In the end, it's still the shooter. If it's still a concern, the CoF could be setup to largely negate the advantage. For example, the Fun Shoot link in #4 requires 1-hand and weak hand shooting. Those who score well on it aren't doing so because they have some unfair equipment advantage; they do so because they're good shooters. Sure, a bullseye master would likely do very well on it, but then again, a bullseye master is likely to be very good shot, no?
 
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