Pistol to Carbine Handload vs Factory Chrono Test

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Wreck-n-Crew, Feb 23, 2016.

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  1. Wreck-n-Crew

    Wreck-n-Crew Member

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    Been looking forward to running some test using various hand loads in a carbine and a pistol. Common thinking that the velocity increase in the carbine will produce a measurable increase in velocity percentages over faster powders and some factory ammo. So i set out using 3 of the four powders i have on hand to see just how much increase is possible.

    Its common knowledge that some of the slowest burning powders are used for rifle and some of the fastest burners for Shotgun and common pistol calibers like 9mm, 45, and 40 respectively. Between those lies a variety of powders that are slower burning and load many calibers as well as shotgun. once again... common knowledge...

    Powder choices were Unique, Red Dot and Power Pistol. I loaded enough for a five shot string for use in both the pistol and the Carbine. First mistake was made here with only loading 5 each. I failed to account for errors and other unforeseen issues and my ammo ran short. Some strings were only 4 in lieu of 5. The biggest issue is the Power Pistol muzzle blast was causing Chronograph read errors and velocity readings in the 300FPS range. I had to move it back to 15ft (rifle setup distances) to prevent the errors on the pistol test. Wow...all I can Say. I wasted too many rounds doing this...lesson learned.

    Some notes worth mentioning:
    The hand loads all were coated bullets and were not my own. I have not had to chance to do a batch or i would have used my own. So improvised I have

    Components used
    Company make: Precision Bullets
    Material:Hard swaged coated
    Weight: 115gr
    Profile:RP
    Primer: Winchester SPP
    Brass: Mixed Head stamp
    OAl: 1.10"

    Factory ammo used:
    Remington Green Box 115gr FMJ

    Chronograph:
    CE Prochrono Digital


    Note on loads: None were max with the exception of the 9mm Red Dot load and it was at max according to one published source. some Data has Max at .2gr less than What I used. So

    Warning, Some Data Using Alliant Red Dot Smokeless Powder in this test exceed max load data in SOME published data and any use or copy of said data in your firearm is not advised. furthermore i am not responsible should anyone cause harm to themselves, their firearm, or anyone else who may be in the vicinity should a failure, ricochet, over penetration, or any other type of loss as a result of using said load

    I had three firearms with me as I was testing some Power Pistol Loads and Red Dot Loads in 10mm with the Chronograph. The 10mm was not a part of the reason for the test but I figured id throw the result in anyway. Also Used was a 44 Magnum Carbine with only one Factory load and I also threw those in the results because of the interesting velocities recorded. The 44 magnum was rifle length at 20"

    Firearms Used in the Test:

    1st Pistol:
    Tanfoglio Witness Elite Match

    Caliber: 10mm

    Barrel length: 5"

    2nd Pistol used:

    Sarsilmaz B6P

    Caliber: 9mm Luger

    Barrel Length: 4.5"

    Carbine used: Hi Point 995

    caliber: 9mm Luger

    Barrel length: 16.5"

    Note: in the following strings data from errors or lack of loaded ammo will be Omitted from the string and averages will be based on string size.

    Sar B6p Hi Point Carbine

    Unique 5.3 Gr

    1186 1390
    1092 1460
    1128 1430
    1130 1400


    AVG 1134 AVG 1420

    PP 5.6gr

    1105 1384
    1112 1409
    1061 1404
    1135 1330

    AVG: AVG:
    1103.25 1381

    PP 5.8gr

    1080 1450
    1199 1374
    1233 1491
    1224 1466
    1224

    AVG: 1192 AVG: 1445

    PP 6.0gr
    error 1470
    1240 1461
    1229 1525
    1211 1481
    1212 1476


    AVG: 1223 AVG:1482.6

    PP 6.2gr

    1244 1508
    1240 1491
    1226 1539
    1227 1499
    1243 1583

    AVG: 1236 AVG: 1524

    Red Dot 4.1gr*

    1200 1419
    1189 1297
    1203 1317
    1179 1330
    1182

    AVG:1190.6 AVG: 1340.75

    Factory Ammo: Remington UMC 115gr Green Box

    1149 1317
    1125 1337
    1109 1318
    1133 1273
    1117 1322
    AVG: 1126.6 AVG: 1313.4


    Other test not related using the 10mm Witness Elite and Marlin 44Mag......

    Pistol: Witness Elite Match

    Caliber:10mm

    Barrel length: 5"

    Powder: Red Dot
    Load: 5.8gr
    Bullet: 170 Gr SWC Cast & Powder Coated

    1035
    959
    1024
    1051
    956
    AVG:1005

    Powder: Power Pistol
    Load 8.1gr
    Bullet: 155gr RNFP Precision Hard Swaged Coated Bullet

    1004
    1201
    1159
    1164
    1169
    AVG1139.4

    Both loads below Max.

    Rifle: Marlin Leveraction
    Caliber: 44 Magnum
    Barrel length: 20"
    Bullet: Winchester 244gr JSP

    1711
    1691
    1758
    1721
    1685
    AVG: 1713.2

    Man that Power Pistol was moving!

    Final notes:
    I haven't crunched the numbers but i dont see a large percentage gap at first sight between slow and fast powders. Maybe the numbers will show a smaller increase than i thought.

    I also noticed that contrary to some reports that coated bullets are a smidgen slower than a FMJ or Plated round but I did not see that. Also those 6.2 gr 9mm loads in the Carbine were at .357 velocities. it was funny how you could hear the bullets smack the target with a thud. Awesome day.

    I took a lot more away from this day than just the 9mm loads. looking at the 44 mag speeds was surprising from what i thought they would be.

    Also the Power pistol 10mm loads were not hot at all. Actually on the low end but they were loud! Well it is power pistol. Also the light Red Dot 10mm loads were quiet...like 9mm quiet without the concussion of a standard 10mm round.
     
  2. Reefinmike

    Reefinmike Member

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    Fun seeing what different powders do in different barrels, huh? Ill throw in a little of my data for anyone interested in the topic. lilgun data is max load data and was carefully worked up to.

    Bullet:164gr PCLSWC case: Starline 357mag primer: CCI SPM
    Fired from a 6" taurus 66 revolver(R) and a rossi 16" carbine(C)

    18.3gr lilgun 2,000fps(C), 1553fps(R) 447fps increase
    15.65gr W296 1751(C), 1342fps(R) 409fps increase
     
  3. Wreck-n-Crew

    Wreck-n-Crew Member

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    Yes it is! Hard to underestimate the performance increase of a long barrel with the numbers staring at you.

    looking at your numbers....that number jump would have been bigger in a shorter barrel revolver. good stuff.
     
  4. chris in va

    chris in va Member

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    I like to think I have a long barreled 357 CX4 carbne. Just happens to use 9mm cases.:p
     
  5. Wreck-n-Crew

    Wreck-n-Crew Member

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    And in a pinch you can hunt medium size game too...:D
     
  6. Wreck-n-Crew

    Wreck-n-Crew Member

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    One more note I find interesting is the thought that Power Pistol has more recoil than many pistol powders and I think I realize why people think it. I may be wrong but more often than not the brain attributes sound and feel when firing a firearm to gauge the recoil. When the boom is louder, the brain tends to attribute it to a higher recoil when its not.

    Minding the formula for recoil, the amount of recoil applied to the slide or bolt action in a semi auto firearm is dependent on the amount of energy produced at the muzzle, or muzzle energy the projectile has at the muzzle. Plus or minus the weight of the powder in the same firearm.

    I separately gauged the recoil from the light 10mm Red Dot Loads and the Power Pistol loads by ignoring the Boom or sound and the recoil on the power pistol was not heavier with the light loads. Only Slightly heavier with the stronger PP loads. The 10mm was tested on two different days during a new PP load development using 155gr RNFP.

    I too fell into the thinking along the lines of more recoil because i forgot to apply the math myself. Funny how the brains perception can fool logic.
     
  7. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    As I continue my carbine load testing at 25/50/100 yards, good to see more data!
     
  8. NINEX19

    NINEX19 Member

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    Please clarify. Are you saying that the 4.1g of Red Dot is over MAX per Alliant?

    I am just asking for Clarification since I have used some older (2000) Alliant data for Red Dot that put MAX for 115g at 4.5.

    I have Chronographed those at 976 ft/sec from a 4.2" barrel.
     
  9. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    I don't think so.

    2004 Alliant load data lists 4.5 gr Red Dot as max for 115 gr FMJ @ 1.120" (1150 fps) and 125 gr Lead RN @ 1.150" (1145 fps) using a 4" test barrel but OP is using a different bullet (coated lead) at shorter than published length with longer 4.5" barrel that produced up to 1200 fps (understandable) so I believe it was a standard disclaimer - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070
     
  10. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    BTW, I reference Red Dot load data for my Promo loads (per Alliant) and got the following out of 16" PSA carbine:

    RMR 115 gr Dia .356" 4.0-4.2 Promo @ 1.135" .377" taper crimp:

    1331
    1358
    1346

    Winchester FMJ 115 gr Dia .355" 4.8-4.9 gr HP-38 @ 1.135" .376" taper crimp:

    1315
    1234
    1334
    1307
    1296

    Will be doing more chrono testing with my 17" Just Right carbine with 9mm/40S&W/45ACP barrels and G22/G23/G27/Sig 1911 so will add more data as I test them.
     
  11. Wreck-n-Crew

    Wreck-n-Crew Member

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    Id be glad to share more as loads develop. I think a Scope is in the works for my bad eyes when I move out to 100. I hope to get some accuracy test and without seeing it clearly it might be hard to get good results and thats why I omitted them for now.

    Love the data. gotta feed the addiction! Its beatiful to see three hobby's merge...Makes my day! How do you like the Just right Carbine? Is it what you expected? Haven't really heard much about them and that makes me curios.

    Nope, just following up on what BDS said. There is one set of Data that has it @3.9gr of Red Dot. Its a bit conservative but some people do freak out when they see data different from what they are aware of. For that reason I just decided to cover myself.
     
  12. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    I mostly like it and it is better than what I expected. I decided to get the Just Right carbine as the modular magwell design will allow use of Glock/M&P/1911 magazines and convert to 9mm/40S&W/45ACP with barrel/bolt/magwell swap.

    I recently finished two PSA 16" MOE carbine kits on Anderson stripped lowers for my sister/BIL and did my initial 25, 50, and 100 yard testing (thanks to jmorris) as I need to get them broken in and reliability checked. I will keep the JR carbine for accuracy testing platform but due to lower cost and same mag release as AR along with last round bolt lock back for different shooters in my family, friends, etc. I will be building more PSA carbines from kits.


    These are differences between PSA and Just Right (JR) carbines:

    - While PSA carbines with magwell blocks (which BTW fit very snug without any play) worked reliably with AR Stoner magazines, I have plenty of Glock magazines and JR carbine will save me the cost of additional magazines. JR carbine's magwell, once installed, becomes an integral part of the receiver and will not get loose.

    - JR carbine has 17" barrel and PSA carbine has 16" and the extra barrel length may be helpful for accuracy testing.

    - While PSA carbine based on AR design has slight upper/lower movement (which "should" not affect accuracy testing much), JR carbine upper/lower are bolted together and will not move.

    - AR based carbines have mag release in the same location and will lock back bolt on last round but JR carbine has mag release on the left side and will not lock back bolt on last round (For range use accuracy testing, I do not see this as an issue and many 3-gun match shooters use JR carbines successfully. BUT for defensive use, this could be an issue for some.).

    While 16" AR based 9mm carbines on various threads posted average 3" groups at 50 yards, Guns & Ammo 2015 testing produced 1.2"-1.7" 50 yard groups with the JR carbine - http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/jr-american-flag-carbine-review/

    So far, my smallest 50 yard group with PSA carbine has been 2.5" with 115 gr RMR HM RN and 4.0-4.2 gr Promo @ 1.135". With JR carbine, I am anticipating smaller shot groups and will post groups/chrono data as I continue testing.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  13. Wreck-n-Crew

    Wreck-n-Crew Member

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    Been wanting a good platform like the AR and the mags are part of the reasoning.

    You know I have a feeling that those groups will tighten up more. Ive seen people hitting 200 yd shots with decent groups with carbines. Keep me informed!

    Carbines demand seems growing in popularity nationally. Also pistol caliber rifles (especially here in Ohio due to changes in the hunting laws) have gained a lot of popularity.
     
  14. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Since my 124/147 gr loads have been more accurate than 115 gr loads for pistols, I didn't expect too much from 115 gr carbine testing. I am anticipating smaller groups with 124/147 gr loads, especially with JR carbine. But will do some 124/147 gr load testing with PSA carbine before I send them to my sister/BIL.

    For next range trip, I am trying to check what transonic effect on 115 gr bullet flight has on accuracy.

    My test loads were 1290-1350 fps so they should have stayed supersonic at 50 yards but Atlanta Arms AMU 115 gr FMJ at 1150 fps is rated to 1.5" at 50 yards which should have gone through transonic speed by 50 yards.

    So I am planning to take some lower velocity/subsonic loads to compare.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  15. Wreck-n-Crew

    Wreck-n-Crew Member

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    Not a bad Idea.

    Velocity numbers are fun but accuracy is what matters in the end for me. I have a couple more loads to test on the upper end in 9mm as well as another powder. I have almost a lb of Autocomp that should be interesting. After that I am loading several more for accuracy so it might be a long day.

    Along those same lines I need some different bullets to test and I think it would be nice to load up some 124 gr. I need a round bullet mold anyway and Maybe Ill get one when I cast/coat up another batch. Maybe two!

    I think I will stick mostly to coated bullets for the time being. Just close that category out for the most part before I think of moving on. Plus I have a powder or 2 Id like to add to the mix. Only problem is Im setting on Mostly Red Dot so any new powders may come in 1lb containers.

    If I had my way there would be one magic powder that fills the case, is highly accurate at low and High Velocities, Burns Clean, Meters like water, Low flash, and only uses max 3gr per 9mm case. But we all know that aint gonna happen...then again if it did exist we would not be wasting all this time having fun! lol
     
  16. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Same here. My motto has been, accuracy is everything and holes on target speak volumes as smaller shot groups result from bullets that had sufficient rotational stability during flight, consistent muzzle velocities, bearing surface contact with rifling/proper barrel twist rate, consistent chamber pressures with less gas leakage.

    Thankfully, 100 yard targets showed round holes instead of keyholing which meant shorter 115 gr bullets were not wobbling during flight. I am going to squeeze out bit more accuracy from 115 gr bullets before I test 124 gr bullets. While I think there's some transonic effect on supersonic 115 gr bullets, it is radial in nature and may not be that significant.

    My biggest fear with PSA carbine testing was they would not be reliable with AR Stoner magazines. Now that worry is gone, I should have a lot more fun on the next range trip.

    I will be testing 124/147 gr jacketed and plated bullets (to include hollow point bullets) so I anticipate smaller shot groups as testing progresses.

    Well, I think only a few powders can meet 4 of 6 criteria and Clays may meet 5.
     
  17. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    For me, it was 22LR ammo availability and price.

    I got Ruger 10/22 Takedown but was afraid to shoot it because I could not find 22LR ammo. When 22LR became available, they were way north of $5/50 and limited quantity purchase of one box at $5/50 at LGS. And price has not really come down even today.

    I told my wife I could reload 9mm using RMR plated RN for around $6/50 and decision was made to buy 9mm carbines. And with AR brass catcher, I don't even have to pick up brass! Life is good. :D
     
  18. ColoradoShooter77

    ColoradoShooter77 Member

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    I've been getting a consistent 300 fps increase with my 40 S&W loads in a High Point Carbine, versus a 4" XD pistol.

    I can push a 180 grain hollowpoint at 1300+ fps with Longshot all day long with the carbine....that's nasty!
     
  19. Wreck-n-Crew

    Wreck-n-Crew Member

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    Id say about 636 ft lbf of energy.

    That's my only problem, I have only one tripod. I need another for the brass catcher.
     
  20. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    I was thinking about using a brass catcher that mounts to the carbine like this - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004SKCUME/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687462&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00EB5OU0Q&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1F5CE7RCYNHSD4HB6EF2
     
  21. lauderdale

    lauderdale Member

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    BDS are you shooting any .40 cal.? I know your busy w/9mm but wanted to ask?
     
  22. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    I have 9mm and 45ACP barrels for the Just Right carbine (wife is planning to buy me the 40S&W kit for birthday which was supposed to happen for Christmas but she got a new BBQ instead).

    But since I need to deliver the two PSA carbines to my sister/BIL next week, I have been focused on getting them accuracy/reliability tested.

    I will resume carbine load testing with JR carbine thereafter to include 40S&W.

    BTW, I have 165 gr Montana Gold JHP, 180 gr Berry's/RMR TCFP/RNFP bullets to test for 40S&W.
     
  23. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    OK, got some chrono data update:

    16" PSA carbine (previous test with HP-38 4.8-4.9 gr and Promo 4.0-4.2 gr
    ):

    Winchester FMJ 115 gr Dia .355" HP-38 4.8-4.9 gr @ 1.135" .376" taper crimp:

    1315
    1234
    1334
    1307
    1296

    RMR HM RN 115 gr Dia .356" Promo 4.0-4.2 gr @ 1.135" .377" taper crimp:

    1331
    1358
    1346


    HP-38 4.6 gr and Promo 3.9-4.0 gr:

    Berry's HBRN 115 gr Dia .3555" HP-38 4.6 gr @ 1.135" .377" taper crimp

    1288
    1246
    1233
    1270
    1264

    Berry's HBRN 115 gr Dia .3555" Promo 3.9-4.0 gr @ 1.135" .377" taper crimp

    1294
    1287
    1316
    1261
    1275

    RMR HM RN 115 gr Dia .356" Promo 3.9-4.0 gr @ 1.135" .377 taper crimp

    1247
    1273
    1259
    1276
    1264
     
  24. Wreck-n-Crew

    Wreck-n-Crew Member

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    That extra .2 gr of Promo made fair jump in the velocity. Any obvious accuracy notes?
     
  25. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    I anticipated 115 gr bullets to produce less accuracy than 124/147 gr loads and will be testing heavier bullets with W231/HP-38, Red Dot/Promo, Bullseye, Titegroup, WST, BE-86, CFE Pistol, AutoComp etc. next.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
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