Planning first 38/357 loads

[vaalpens]

I have purchased a Ruger SP101 357magnum with a 3" barrel, and is now planning my first 38/357 loads.

The bullet I am planning to use is the MBC HiTek coated 158gr SWC with an 18 Brinell hardness. These bullets were received from Dudedog as a surprise PIF to help me get started with 38/357.

Over the last week or so I have been creating some dummy rounds, practicing my crimping, planning my first loads, and now finally it is time to create some live rounds to be tested.

The first reload round I will be shooting will be the first round I loaded in 38/357, and also the first round that will be shot in my new SP101. Obviously there is no pressure on me to get my first reloads perfect.

Following are the loads I am currently planning on loading sorted in the order of which they will be shot. This means that the first shot through my SP101 will be a 357magnum load, loaded with Unique.

357mag
COL: 1.615"
Trim: 1.285"
Bullet: MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC
Load: Unique, 5.4gr, CCI500

357mag
COL: 1.615"
Trim: 1.285"
Bullet: MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC
Load: CFEpistol, 5.3gr, CCI500

38Special+P
COL: 1.475"
Trim: 1.145"
Bullet: MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC
Load: PowerPistol, 5.4gr, CCI500

38Special
COL: 1.475"
Trim: 1.145"
Bullet: MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC
Load: Bullseye, 3.2gr, CCI500

Probably the only load that is giving me some pause, is the Bullseye 38special load because of the 18 Brinell hardness of the bullet. My concern obviously is getting a squib

I would appreciate any comments or suggestions regarding the loads above. Please let me know if you have any concerns about any of the above loads.

One final note. I have commented before that I will be using bullets received in a PIF from Dudedog. Thanks again Dudedog. The 357magnum cases I will be using have been received from jell-dog in another surprise PIF. Thanks again jell-dog.

 

[rcmodel]

You will not get a squib with 3.2 Bullseye under any 158 grain lead bullet!!

3.5 was the standard .38 Spl factory load for about 75 years!!

You can probably go to 3.0, or 2.8 and still be safe.

Bullet hardness doesn't really enter into it.

A cast lead bullet of any hardness will be swaged to bore diameter after it moves one bullet length in the rifling.

It doesn't change pressure enough to measure with your typical home model yardstick.

rc

 

[gonoles_1980]

I use 3.4gr of Bullseye with my Speer LSWCHP which has a 12 BHN. The only think you might be concerned about is leading, just check the barrel in your unloaded guy with cylinder open using a flashlight when you are done for the day. I doubt that will be an issue.

My Layman manual has a starting load of 3.0 for 158gr Linotype
My Speer manual has 3.1 as the starting load for the Speer LSWCHP 158gr

 

[vaalpens]

You will not get a squib with 3.2 Bullseye under any 158 grain lead bullet!!

3.5 was the standard .38 Spl factory load for about 75 years!!

You can probably go to 3.0, or 2.8 and still be safe.

Bullet hardness doesn't really enter into it.

A cast lead bullet of any hardness will be swaged to bore diameter after it moves one bullet length in the rifling.

It doesn't change pressure enough to measure with your typical home model yardstick.

rc

rcmodel, thanks for shedding some light on my squib concern.

The load data I used is from the Alliant site where they show 3.5gr for a Speer 158gr LSWC. If 3.5gr is the MAX, then 10% less put me at 3.2gr.

I have no problem upping the charge since the COL they have listed is 1.440", which is lower than what I will be loading. And even if I start higher, then it just takes me closer to a +P load, so no big deal.

I was debating with myself if I should use Bullseye or 700-x, both with a very small load range, but decided on Bullseye since it has been used in 38special forever.

 

[vaalpens]

I use 3.4gr of Bullseye with my Speer LSWCHP which has a 12 BHN. The only think you might be concerned about is leading, just check the barrel in your unloaded guy with cylinder open using a flashlight when you are done for the day. I doubt that will be an issue.

My Layman manual has a starting load of 3.0 for 158gr Linotype
My Speer manual has 3.1 as the starting load for the Speer LSWCHP 158gr

gnoles, thanks for your comments.

The bullet I will be using is the Hi-Tek coated bullet, which I don't expect to give me any leading, even with the harder bullet.

Looks like I will definitely up the charge a bit since I would feel more comfortable moving further away from the close to squib territory.

 

[sellersm]

Sounds like you're going to be fine. Enjoy the Power Pistol fireball!!

 

[vaalpens]

Sounds like you're going to be fine. Enjoy the Power Pistol fireball!!

Thanks sellersm.

The PowerPistol load is just to give me a taste. Next up will probably some Longshot loads also, but probably only for 357magnum.

 

[theleo]

The only thing I'd recommend is ditch the 38 special +p load. It'll be easier for you to just load plinking/target loads in the 38 cases and the hotter stuff in 357 cases. It'll hustle save you from mixing them up down the road. Another thing I like to do is have my 357 cases be nickel plated variety. Silver in the ammo box is a quick easy way to see they're 357's instead of my 38's. Same when separating from when they get tumbled so 38's don't slip in with the 357's. Just food for thought.

 

[vaalpens]

The only thing I'd recommend is ditch the 38 special +p load. It'll be easier for you to just load plinking/target loads in the 38 cases and the hotter stuff in 357 cases. It'll hustle save you from mixing them up down the road. Another thing I like to do is have my 357 cases be nickel plated variety. Silver in the ammo box is a quick easy way to see they're 357's instead of my 38's. Same when separating from when they get tumbled so 38's don't slip in with the 357's. Just food for thought.

theleo, thanks for your comments. The +p load is just to up the velocity a bit in 38special and to get a feel of it.

My process at the time is to keep the 38 and 357 together through washing, tumbling and resizing. I normally sort my brass after each resize. Any mixup between 38/357 at this time will be caught in a later stage when I sort by case length.

At this time I don't have enough 357mag brass to just use the nickel brass, and it will probably take a while before I will get to enough of them to be more selective.

 

[RealGun]

The only 38 Special load I will shoot in a 357 case is a max load for 38 SPL +p, still below the minimum for 357 loads with the same powder and bullet.

I have plenty of 38 Special cases as another PIF, if interested. That would be the way to get light target loads, well below magnum performance.

On another note, when you said you were concerned about 18 hardness, I expected you to say because of leading at lower velocity. The light loads are probably going to need plated, coated, or softer lead alloy, noting that plated needs to have a good load behind it or it might stick.

 

[theleo]

theleo, thanks for your comments. The +p load is just to up the velocity a bit in 38special and to get a feel of it.

My process at the time is to keep the 38 and 357 together through washing, tumbling and resizing. I normally sort my brass after each resize. Any mixup between 38/357 at this time will be caught in a later stage when I sort by case length.

At this time I don't have enough 357mag brass to just use the nickel brass, and it will probably take a while before I will get to enough of them to be more selective.

This is the first time I've heard of sorting by case length. Do you take calipers to each case, sorting that way?

 

[vaalpens]

This is the first time I've heard of sorting by case length. Do you take calipers to each case, sorting that way?

I started sorting by case length when I started my 357sig reloading. The only reason why I am doing it is to help me flare the case as little as possible, and also help with the crimping so I don't overcrimp. I don't trim my brass, so the sorting by length is the closest I get to trimming my brass.

 

[theleo]

I started sorting by case length when I started my 357sig reloading. The only reason why I am doing it is to help me flare the case as little as possible, and also help with the crimping so I don't overcrimp. I don't trim my brass, so the sorting by length is the closest I get to trimming my brass.

What die are you using to flare your cases with?

 

[vaalpens]

The only 38 Special load I will shoot in a 357 case is a max load for 38 SPL +p, still below the minimum for 357 loads with the same powder and bullet.

I have plenty of 38 Special cases as another PIF, if interested. That would be the way to get light target loads, well below magnum performance.

On another note, when you said you were concerned about 18 hardness, I expected you to say because of leading at lower velocity. The light loads are probably going to need plated, coated, or softer lead alloy, noting that plated needs to have a good load behind it or it might stick.

RealGun, thanks for the PIF offer. I am definitely short on 38/357 cases and would appreciate any additional cases I can find. PM me if the offer still stands.

I wasn't sure if the 18 hardness would make any difference when loading in 38 special since MBC only lists the 12 hardness under 38 special. Since these bullets are coated, I don't expect any leading. I was just concerned that the 18 would loose some velocity in the 38 special load, and maybe I should not start at the minimum. Based on previous comments, I am planing to start my Bullseye 38special load at 3.5gr, instead of the 3.2gr, and it should remove any chances of a squib, assuming I am doing my part.

 

[theleo]

RealGun, thanks for the PIF offer. I am definitely short on 38/357 cases and would appreciate any additional cases I can find. PM me if the offer still stands.

I wasn't sure if the 18 hardness would make any difference when loading in 38 special since MBC only lists the 12 hardness under 38 special. Since these bullets are coated, I don't expect any leading. I was just concerned that the 18 would loose some velocity in the 38 special load, and maybe I should not start at the minimum. Based on previous comments, I am planing to start my Bullseye 38special load at 3.5gr, instead of the 3.2gr, and it should remove any chances of a squib, assuming I am doing my part.

Bullet hardness doesn't really correlate to velocity. In lead, the hardness is related to how much pressure and RPM's the bullet is doing. In plinking loads softer bullets can often be more forgiving than hard bullets. The use of harder bullets comes in when you're pushing magnum velocities and pressure as the bullets needs to be hard enough to grip the lands without skidding/smearing as it travels down the barrel. The leftover smear is what leading is. At 18 you can do pretty much whatever you want especially since it's coated, but expansion won't likely happen. Not an issue with target loads.

 

[vaalpens]

Bullet hardness doesn't really correlate to velocity. In lead, the hardness is related to how much pressure and RPM's the bullet is doing. In plinking loads softer bullets can often be more forgiving than hard bullets. The use of harder bullets comes in when you're pushing magnum velocities and pressure as the bullets needs to be hard enough to grip the lands without skidding/smearing as it travels down the barrel. The leftover smear is what leading is. At 18 you can do pretty much whatever you want especially since it's coated, but expansion won't likely happen. Not an issue with target loads.

theleo, thanks for explaining some of the details regarding lead bullets. I did not know that the harder bullet helps with the grip, but it makes sense now.

Just one follow-up question. When you say "but expansion won't likely happen", do you mean bullet expansion when it hits the target, or some other expansion?

 

[theleo]

Yes, expansion on target is what I was referring to.

If you're goal is to minimize how much you flare the necks before seating you're bullets you might want to look into a neck expander type die like an "M" die. I did some 38's last night. Here's a coupl of pictures of what an expanded case looks like compared to one that's only been resized.

You can see its pretty minimal how much the brass gets worked and the bullet sits square in the case when you set it in. I use a different set up than a "M" die but it works in the exact same principle.

 

[vaalpens]

Yes, expansion on target is what I was referring to.

If you're goal is to minimize how much you flare the necks before seating you're bullets you might want to look into a neck expander type die like an "M" die. I did some 38's last night. Here's a coupl of pictures of what an expanded case looks like compared to one that's only been resized.

You can see its pretty minimal how much the brass gets worked and the bullet sits square in the case when you set it in. I use a different set up than a "M" die but it works in the exact same principle.

Thanks again for the additional information. I have to admit I had to go and read up on the "M" die to find out what it is. I can see now how it would help getting the bullet to seat squarely.

Those are some great looking lead bullets. Very smooth and well defined edges. Do you cast them yourself?

 

[IWAC]

NICE GUN!
It looks like you are in the ballpark. BUT! Hard-cast SWCs DO NOT expand. AND...buy some 357 maggie brass! Amazon has Starline at a reasonable price. (imnho) You will be glad you did! None of the "once fired" "Shinola" you find on line, or at your LGS!
My IPSC load for years was 5.5 gr Unique/357 brass/ standard primers/150-158 gr cast SWC, seated to the recommended overall length that you'll find in any manual, 1.590 in. 860 fps from a 4" barrel, pleasant to shoot.
Good luck with your search!

 

[theleo]

Thanks again for the additional information. I have to admit I had to go and read up on the "M" die to find out what it is. I can see now how it would help getting the bullet to seat squarely.

Those are some great looking lead bullets. Very smooth and well defined edges. Do you cast them yourself?

Yeah, they're my first attempt at 38/357 cast bullets. My 44 special got me into cast bullets. Later came cast for a whinchester 86 45-90 manufactured around 1889, then a couple of 32-20's that belonged to a great grandfather.

For an idea what I was talking about hardness of bullets. The 45-90 and the 32-20's are only cast to be around a 12. The 45-90 bullets will expand if they hit something. The 44 special gets fed scrap lead with a little tin for mold fill out. I'm not worried about the hardness as I'm not pushing them all that fast, same with the 38's. The punishment if I push cast bullets to fast with lead that is not hard enough, is loss of accuracy and scrubbing out lead from the grooves in the barrel, they'll fill making the lands less pronounced. If you get bored with your reloading it's a fun discipline to learn and you make a challenge out of scrounging. The only out of pocket cost on the bullets in that picture is the lube (the red grease band) to the tune of about 2 cents. Shooting becomes much more affordable when your biggest expense is the primer.

If you decide to start using "M" dies send me a message. There's a more affordable way than buying a die for each caliber you may have.

 

[vaalpens]

NICE GUN!
It looks like you are in the ballpark. BUT! Hard-cast SWCs DO NOT expand. AND...buy some 357 maggie brass! Amazon has Starline at a reasonable price. (imnho) You will be glad you did! None of the "once fired" "Shinola" you find on line, or at your LGS!
My IPSC load for years was 5.5 gr Unique/357 brass/ standard primers/150-158 gr cast SWC, seated to the recommended overall length that you'll find in any manual, 1.590 in. 860 fps from a 4" barrel, pleasant to shoot.
Good luck with your search!

IWAC, thanks for the information.

Good to get some confirmation on my planned starting load of 5.4gr Unique. What type of crimp did you apply for your 5.5gr load. At 860fps I assume you don't need much more than a light crimp.

I'm not looking for any expansion at this point since I have other calibers for SD. In the future I will start thinking about it, and probably use the SP101 as my hiking gun, especially with the rattlesnakes here in the desert. So a snake load will probably be in my future.

 

[vaalpens]

Yeah, they're my first attempt at 38/357 cast bullets. My 44 special got me into cast bullets. Later came cast for a whinchester 86 45-90 manufactured around 1889, then a couple of 32-20's that belonged to a great grandfather.

For an idea what I was talking about hardness of bullets. The 45-90 and the 32-20's are only cast to be around a 12. The 45-90 bullets will expand if they hit something. The 44 special gets fed scrap lead with a little tin for mold fill out. I'm not worried about the hardness as I'm not pushing them all that fast, same with the 38's. The punishment if I push cast bullets to fast with lead that is not hard enough, is loss of accuracy and scrubbing out lead from the grooves in the barrel, they'll fill making the lands less pronounced. If you get bored with your reloading it's a fun discipline to learn and you make a challenge out of scrounging. The only out of pocket cost on the bullets in that picture is the lube (the red grease band) to the tune of about 2 cents. Shooting becomes much more affordable when your biggest expense is the primer.

If you decide to start using "M" dies send me a message. There's a more affordable way than buying a die for each caliber you may have.

theleo, great information about shooting lead. Thanks.

My wife will love me if I add scrounging for lead to what I normally scrounge for or ask her to look for. She has to ask for cardboard boxes (targets), help me look for brass when we go in the desert, and anything else I can use for something. I tend to add new guns/calibers or new hobbies maybe once a year, so maybe getting into casting could be my 2017 project. It will probably be less expensive than buying a new gun.

 

[IWAC]

IWAC, thanks for the information.

Good to get some confirmation on my planned starting load of 5.4gr Unique. What type of crimp did you apply for your 5.5gr load. At 860fps I assume you don't need much more than a light crimp.

I'm not looking for any expansion at this point since I have other calibers for SD. In the future I will start thinking about it, and probably use the SP101 as my hiking gun, especially with the rattlesnakes here in the desert. So a snake load will probably be in my future.

A new gun or several is always a good thing! My load isn't really a "light" load. It is what my brother-in-law and I termed a "Hot .38-mild magnum"load, and what I have found useful for years. With 357 and cast bullets, I have come to the conclusion that over 1,000 fps, most of what you get is more boom and flash.
I have one gun, and have settled on the Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot 38 Spl+P Short barrel ammo. More velocity from my 4", and extremely adequate.

I use what I figured is a medium crimp, going from the photos I saw of crimps in the gunzines and drawings in a really old Lyman manual. I had to learn this stuff all on my own...a pleasant and sometimes frustrating journey!

Snake loads? You can buy some really jazzy-looking ones from Speer...~$14/12, iirc, but better is to buy or have your LGS special order a box or three of Speer Shot capsules, (Cabela's did for me) Use the load recommended on the box (5.5gr. Unique) & carefully seat and them so you don't crunch the capsule. Some guys even use a dab of super glue, so the capsules don't "creep". I've not found that necessary with 357 brass...the crimp holds fine. Go to Wally World or somewhere, and find the cheapest box of shotshells with #9 shot...I think I found some for like 4.99/box... tear them down for the shot, which for me, is a lifetime supply, dump the powder, deactivate the primers with a spritz of Kroil or WD-40, and Fear Not!

Practice with your 101...
they can be amazingly effective at 50+ yards, IF the gentleman behind the steering wheel knows!

Have fun at this Fine and Pleasant Madness!

 

[vaalpens]

A new gun or several is always a good thing! My load isn't really a "light" load. It is what my brother-in-law and I termed a "Hot .38-mild magnum"load, and what I have found useful for years. With 357 and cast bullets, I have come to the conclusion that over 1,000 fps, most of what you get is more boom and flash.
I have one gun, and have settled on the Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot 38 Spl+P Short barrel ammo. More velocity from my 4", and extremely adequate.

I use what I figured is a medium crimp, going from the photos I saw of crimps in the gunzines and drawings in a really old Lyman manual. I had to learn this stuff all on my own...a pleasant and sometimes frustrating journey!

Snake loads? You can buy some really jazzy-looking ones from Speer...~$14/12, iirc, but better is to buy or have your LGS special order a box or three of Speer Shot capsules, (Cabela's did for me) Use the load recommended on the box (5.5gr. Unique) & carefully seat and them so you don't crunch the capsule. Some guys even use a dab of super glue, so the capsules don't "creep". I've not found that necessary with 357 brass...the crimp holds fine. Go to Wally World or somewhere, and find the cheapest box of shotshells with #9 shot...I think I found some for like 4.99/box... tear them down for the shot, which for me, is a lifetime supply, dump the powder, deactivate the primers with a spritz of Kroil or WD-40, and Fear Not!

Practice with your 101...
they can be amazingly effective at 50+ yards, IF the gentleman behind the steering wheel knows!

Have fun at this Fine and Pleasant Madness!

IWAC, thanks again for the comments.

You are correct. A new gun is always a good thing. I'm not sure if my other guns agree, but I will try and give equal attention to all my handguns.

I am still learning what a light/medium/heavy crimp is, but experience will probably help with the journey.

I have been reading up on snake shot and found many recipes/how to's out there. From a cleaner barrel perspective, it seems that the Speer Shot capsules is the way to go. I will probably have to get something loaded/tested before our long summer season starts.

Looking forward to all the practice and load evaluation with the SP101.

 

[theleo]

theleo, great information about shooting lead. Thanks.

My wife will love me if I add scrounging for lead to what I normally scrounge for or ask her to look for. She has to ask for cardboard boxes (targets), help me look for brass when we go in the desert, and anything else I can use for something. I tend to add new guns/calibers or new hobbies maybe once a year, so maybe getting into casting could be my 2017 project. It will probably be less expensive than buying a new gun.

I'd start off with how much you can save. You can scrounge better than what I do (get more free stuff) but here's my break down:
I can buy tin on line for 14.99/lb (if you know some one who does much soldering their drippings can work depending on the composition).

I buy the lube for 2.20/stick (one stick can do around 1500 of the 38's I posted and you can make your own cheaper).

Lead was free.

38 special cases can be had for the picking at lots of ranges, they were free.

Powder I'm using is Tight Group which I got for $81.23 for a 4 pound jug out the door at the LGS.

Primers are 3.99/100 where I'm at.

The richest mix I do of lead to tin is 20:1. Plinking bullets are closer to maybe 30:1. So for 154 grain 38's I have about a penny worth of tin in each bullet. The lube (once you throw a little postage in and spread between several sticks) come to about a penny. I'm only using about 3 grains of powder for these loads which comes to about a penny. Primers end up being 4 cents a round. So all totalled I end up paying 7 cents a round for 38's. That totals $3.50 for a box of 50. The 45-90 rounds end up closer to 20 cents a round but that's still a lot better than paying $50.00 for a box of 20. The 32-20's I'm shooting 85 grain bullets, I haven't done the math on them but I'm pretty confident it comes in well under the price tag of $35 for a 50 round box that I saw on the shelf last time I even saw any 32-20 stuff on a shelf.

Molds, lead pot, sizer, sizing dies... I just view as investments in my sanity. Reloading and casting are relaxing to me so the price is worth it to me. When it's been a long day there's nothing nicer than grabbing a beer, head into my shop, and heat the molds up for an hour or two. When I'm done I look down and have few hundred HP 44 bullets to size and shoot.