Plastic Fantastic - will there be Gats for the Grandkids?

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MoNsTeR,

Same story: bisphenol-A, according to Dr. Vom Saal and some others, such as Dr. Hunt, is an estrogen-mimic. There is a potential link between the presence of this substance and prostate enlargement and birth defects from chromosomal damage (estrogen, the female hormone, is one of the active ingredients, along with estradiol, in birth-control pills). Bisphenol-A is not present in all plastics, and it requires certain agents to leech it out of the plastics it is contained in. It requires some pretty serious fictional license to extrapolate this data to "Cleaning your Glock/USP/P99 causes cancer." But, then, science education and critical thinking skills are rather sadly neglected in U.S. schools. ;)
 
Handy,

I'm not necessarily stating that it's a bad idea, just that I'm convinced that there's a reason it's not being implemented beyond that of "no one is daring enough to try it". Pistols as heirlooms are nice (I collect vintage Smith revolvers, you know ;) ) but there's a broad spectrum of folks who just need them for tools. My all-steel BDM is quite slim (as are the 1911 and GP35) and light (for an all-steel gun, a serious qualifier), but certainly much heavier than the comparably-sized P-228 and G19, and the BDM hasn't exactly garnered a reputation for rugged durability despite its all-steel construction. Personally, I think the whole weight issue can be overplayed (I'm carrying an all-steel 1911 on my hip right now) in certain cases, but it makes a difference in other cases: the gun in my purse is made largely of aluminum and titanium, and the gun on my hip is not accompanied by OC, four spare mags, a radio, a baton, handcuffs, and assorted other doodads.

Additionally, I'm not convinced that a frame welded from steel stampings, as you suggested, would necessarily offer any increase in durability for a shooting firearm. Sure, it may last longer than the plastic one if left in the sock drawer for 150 years (we have no empirical evidence of this, due to the paucity of 100-year-old polymer frames, so we're all working from various SWAG's on the issue ;) ), but the welded stampings would expose you to the same cracking problems as anodized aluminum forgings in a long-term, heavy-use gun.
 
Tamara,

The reason it hasn't been implemented is that there is no demand for any new design that is not either very traditional or plastic. Blame the Glock. The consumer would say "why bother" and not be wrong. If you think about a light steel gun, it's attractive, but not enough to motivate a market.

We always end up talking bikes, because there are some parallels. Interestingly, pressure from the carbon fiber, aluminum and Ti bikes have led some innovators to build amazingly light and strong steel frames. But bicycle frame building still has a strong cottage industry, which firearms really don't. We have gunsmiths, not but not many small designer/fabricators.


As to the strength of stampings, your HK91 is a nice example of a stamped military arm that has seen world military service since 1959, with many of those first guns still in use. Obviously, one can screw up anything, but stamped/welded construction has been going strong in firearms since before WWII, it just hasn't been applied to handguns much. The few that have seem to work just fine.

I do expect my stamped P9S and GB frames to retain their strength and dimensions for more rounds than the Glock, perhaps indefinetly. The G34/35 slide peaning issue will likely prove the hallmark of future problems as the plastic begins to lose its elasticity. I wouldn't venture a guess when the polymer frames will die, but I truly expect no comparable issues with any decent steel production. Especially stampings, which are likely tougher than cast steel parts.
 
Handy,

I do expect my stamped P9S and GB frames to retain their strength and dimensions for more rounds than the Glock,
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No quibble about the general properties of stampings, it's just when welds enter the picture that one adds a significant variable for screwups to occur. (Also note that the P9 weighs ~1.3 times what a G17 does, whereas a G17 weighs less than 10% more than an HK4.)

Especially stampings, which are likely tougher than cast steel parts.
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Indeed. Although I think lendringser put it well when he said "ordnance steel is ordnance steel, and for all practical purposes doesn't much care how it's shaped into its final form." (With necessary caveats about due care being taken for stresses in the metal and/or air pockets and such. ;) )
 
Well, I think we all recognize that the G17 is not a lightweight just due to its frame material. So comparing it to guns with hammers, cocking levers, etc. is a little misleading. Something like a USP, Sig Pro, Witness Poly, P95 might be better. But again, you're comparing one or two guns to 20 of the poly variety.


I'm not sure what you (and Lensringer) mean about steel being steel. I wouldn't work on a car with a cast steel wrench. Stamping steel, for instance, is a forging process, which should produce better grain structure and harder metal. Are there any cast steel barrels? Are the cast Special Weapons G3 receivers as thin as the stamped ones?
 
Handy,

Are there any cast steel barrels?
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I think Ruger makes a cast 6-shot .454 Casull cylinder. All the other companies make forged 5-shot cylinders. There's castings and then there's castings....

Like I said:

(With necessary caveats about due care being taken for stresses in the metal and/or air pockets and such. ;) )
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[Edit: I may be wrong about the cylinder, but there's no doubt that Ruger frames and rifle receivers are cast, and anybody who's glanced through a reloading source has heard of "Ruger only loads"...]

[PPS: Doing a Google on "Ruger investment cast" has turned up all kinds of cool stuff on the web. I love these kind of threads... :cool:]
 
Handy,

Interesting factoid, although I don't know how (or if) it bears on the discussion at hand, is that (IIRC) Ruger's current centerfire polymer-framed semiautos eschew metal frame rails, and instead rely on the inherent lubricity of the polymer (and some mohunkin' big frame rails). You may be right, in that all these plasticky bits will be dust in 50 or 100 years, but it'll be interesting to find out whether new material solutions to old engineering problems have really been discovered.
 
BHP9,

The plastic that was damaged by the rat cage cleaner belongs to the group that polycarbonate and it's cousins are part of. Discussions involving bisphonl A are not relevant when discussing the glocks as it is not used in nylons (this is like using Pb hazards or Ni carcinoginicity as the basis for claiming your other-metal guns should be tossed out).
You should be more worried about the bottled water from your office cooler (polycarbonate type platic http://www.polymerprocessing.com/polymers/PC.html) than your glock (nylon type plastic http://www.polymerprocessing.com/polymers/PA6.html). Matter of fact, you should be much more worried about the solvents you use to clean your gun. Since the glock requires less cleaning than many other handguns it may actually be safer from a hazardous chemical exposure standpoint. Regardless, any cleaning using solvents should be done out of doors with plenty of good ventilation and I advise the use of nitrile exam gloves if using anything that looks like carburator cleaner or has skin irritation warnings.I will not clean guns in the house nor will I do it without nitrile gloves (your suggestion to use "surgical" gloves was at least looking in the right direction if the wrong material).

OBTW, I'm an Industrial Hygienst so if you would like information on a good source on disposable nitrile gloves I'd be happy to forward the information.

Mike
 
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Hey, if I start cleaning my guns outside....

GONE will be the buzz I've always enjoyed from sniffing fumes of old No.9.....although there'd be fewer complaints from the wife. Shame too, I've always thought Hoppes would make an ideal aftershave.
 
hso, I'd be grateful if you would please post that information on a source for disposable nitrile gloves. I'm sure many of us (including me!) would appreciate the information.
 
Where's Boats and BHP9 clamoring "More stampings, more stampings!"
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Reactionary? Moi? Don't go lumping me in with someone I have on my ignore list.:D

Anyways, there are plenty of examples of stamped steel guns that worked: AK variants, the M3 Grease Gun, the Liberator. . . some SIGs. . . .What was my reactionary point again? Oh yeah, stampings are great for a throwaway gun! When I see a polymer or stamped wheelgun I'll know plastic and stampings have finally interesected with aesthetics and quality. In other words, plastic and the press will have finally "arrived" at the point where most discerning handgun customers have lost all sense of taste.:evil:

I have the feeling it will be a long wait for that day. I personally do not have anything objective against plastic or stampings in weaponry, I just think that an overabundance of the two exude a lack of class, style, and value. I could care less one way or the other if the plastic or stamped guns of today are still kicking with their steel counterparts a hundred years from now. I do know based on past performance, a well cared for all steel one will still be eminently fireable.
 
Thank you for living up to my prejudices.


By the by, how is a stamped steel gun not an "all steel gun"?
 
Boats, there is a polymer framed wheel gun. It's a top break .357 made in Russia.
 
Pardon my incorrect terminology. Forged or cast steel firearm contrasted against sheet metal firearms or Glorified Bakelite guns.

Remember Handy, it is all in jest. No one should care too much for what I think about weapons made of Tupperware or Reynold's Wrap. :evil:
 
Boats, there is a polymer framed wheel gun. It's a top break .357 made in Russia.
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There is also a semi-automatic revolver from Italy, doesn't make it right.:rolleyes:
 
Triad,

I'd be willing to bet that the revolver in question has a steel frame with a polymer shell... (Its 32oz. weight would certainly suggest it.)
 
Tamara

It probably does have a steel frame. I wish I could buy one and find out. Damn worthless politicians.:cuss: :fire:
 
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