Plastic Fantastic - will there be Gats for the Grandkids?

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Only a decade or so? You are on crack Handy. :D

The first frame on my Glock 17 was 12 years old when I upgraded to the frame with the light rails. It was fully functional after a decade of carry in uniform.
I use both with confidence that they will outlast my mortal bones.

Maybe our grandkids can continue this argument in the future on "The Really High Road Firing Line Glock Talk Forum". :p
 
The "decade or so" comment was in reference to the average time most police agencies keep their weapons, not how long the gun lasts. As you state, you got your Glock exchanged at 12 years. The NJ police P7s were considered really old at 20. A decade or so would be between 10 and 20. What did I do wrong this time?
 
I didn't buy my Glocks with the intension of leaving them as heirlooms. Plastic does deteriorate, but let's face it, so does steel (RUST!). Who knows how long Glocks will last, but who cares? Besides, there are a zillion Glocks, and none but a few special issues will ever be collectable.
 
Handy,

As a little girl once said to (a reaosnable facsimile of) Einstein: Duh-uh! :rolleyes:
 
Thanks, as always, for your insightful contributions to this forum.
 
Handy,

To each, according to their demonstrated capacity to understand, I try.

Although I suspect my comments are the last thing some would ever be truly thankful for... I'll thank you for offering the appearance of appreciation. :)

"Insightful..." Yep, defintely should have taken Psychology... :D
 
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Gents,

This discussion was had at length on ak-47.net regarding polymer AK mags and the AR-180b receiver. A fellow there is a plastics engineer--Schuetzenman maybe? I don't recall who it was. Anyway, he was of the opinion based on many years working with plastics that the polymer guns/parts would indeed become brittle over the long-term for the reasons mentioned above. I don't know if that would affect my purchasing for my use, but would enter into consideration if I was thinking of passing a weapon down the family tree. I definately do think of such things on some purchases.

Please don't take my word for this. Do a search on 47.net for the past discussions--they were very interesting!

GR
 
Handy,

My advice would be for you to encourage your grandkids to study metalurgy and/or polymer science, so they could be set to make a fortune in providing after-market replacement parts for the millions of polymer framed firearms that will exist by the time they become adults.

BTW, be sure and remind them to "pass the savings along..." . :rolleyes: :uhoh: :barf:
 
BTW, be sure and remind them to "pass the savings along..." .
Click to expand...

This bothered me for a second, but you are completely right. Glock, HK, Springfield and Walther have discovered a product consumers want without questioning what they are getting. Yes, they are getting well engineered pistols, but those pistols feature the same materials, engineering and development as a quality $30 blender.

Manufactorers shouldn't "pass the savings along". But the gun buying public could be a little more critical. Since the mid-eighties, Glock prices have nearly doubled while several more labor intensive designs have barely krept up in price.

I guess the kind of person that would question "what am I really paying for?" is the same person who might also wonder if the weapon is built to last. Why buy a BMW when a Camaro has a bigger engine?

Along these lines, P7 owners are always labeled as snobs, concerned with appearances rather than the functionality of the weapon. But what would you call someone who purchased a $600 Glock knowing full well that it "shouldn't" have cost more than $300, and in years past did not?
 
Monster,

Please compare the price of a Beretta in 85 with today. By your math the gun is cheaper than ever.
 
Handy, Berettas are cheaper today (in adjusted dollars) as are computers and gasoline. Inflation tends to make people pine away for the good old days when a gallon of milk was a dime and a cup of coffee was nickel. But compare how long you have to work to earn a nickel today compared to the 1950s.


I think you may have a point about polymer guns not lasting as long as steel, however the amount of use you can get out of them in the short run makes them worth the cost. If a gun is lighter and more comfortable to carry then you'll be sure to carry it and more likely have it when you need it (but maybe I'm a hypocrite since I carry an all steel Kahr MK40 :p )

Also, I know of many people who have inherited grandpas Colt Peacemaker or whatever, and those guns haven't been what I would call "every day carry" worthy either.

If you want to have a few guns to hand down as family heirlooms then I agree you should pick steel guns (not just because they are more durable, but because someday steel guns will possibly be rare) ... but don't shoot them much either.

I do wonder if someday there will be polymers that won't degrade over time (assuming there is any material that won't degrade over time).
 
i did buch of searching of the internet looking for studies on the lifespan and durability of polymers. i came up empty. there was a reference to a book on that very subject but it was $85 and i'm a cheapskate. i checked out DuPont's website because i remembered that the Kel-Tec P-11 was made from a Dupont polymer but couldn't find any references on Dupont's site about the one listed on Kel-Tec's site. its called Dupont ST-8018. i did find some for ST-2010 and ST-2030 that gave properties of the polymers such as heat range, tensile stregth, stretch strength etc, but it was all greek to me as i know virtually nothing about the aforementioned measurements and what they mean and how they compare to steel or alloys.

however, i do have a point or two to debate. first, most polymer framed pistols are built around a steel skelton frame which bears the brunt of the punishment. second, the plastics in blenders, and the polymers in guns are not even close to the same. polymer are long chains of carbon with enormously strong chemical and ionic bonds, that are arranged in groups and the groups are arranged in structures. it usually takes huge amouts of energy (usually in the from of heat and pressure) to get all those carbon molecules to bond in the desired number, shape way etc. it takes an equal amout of energy to break those bonds.

i've had polymer vs. plastic explained to me like this:

think of the molecules we're dealing with as sticks of wood. plastics are pick-up sticks. you drop them into a pile and they are not arranged in any certain way, don't have much strength and are easy to disrupt.

polymer molecules are like link'n logs. they are stonger individual pieces, and when arranged to "link" with each other can become fairly sturdy and much less prone to being disrupted.

a chessey analogy but gives a little bit of a picture of the chemical structure.

polymers are however, organic compounds. they will indeed break down in the elements. but metal does the same thing, just in a different way. would you pick up a 100 year old Colt revolver and go shooting with it if you knew it hadn't been properly stored? your Glock/HK/P99 will be just fine in 50 years. you grandkids will probably be safe shooting it. look at the H&K VP70Z and P9S. they are around 30 years old, first generation polymers, and are holding up just dandy. only time will tell if we are right or not.

in the mean time, i'll keep looking for resources about polymer durability and post a link if i find any. this is quite interesting to me.

Bobby
 
Zandolfoge,

I imagine frames my be made out of solid carbon structures (Buckminster-Fulerine or the like), but plastic is going to be it for awhile.

Vinny,

Speaking of plastic and polymer, these are both general terms for organic based solids. Some are better than others, but no special qualities seem to be bequeathed by using the term "polymer". I would imagine that good old fiber forming nylon makes the cutoff. It is Glock's miracle ingrediant, after all.

Poly guns do not really have metal skeletons. The Steyr M does, but the Glock definitely does not. These weapons distort so much during firing that some models get frame block peaning (34 and 35 particularly). That's fine, they can take it while the plastic is new. I guess I'm wondering what "not so new" polymer is and how it will take it.

The VP70s are definitely getting up there in age, but are so uncommon that it might be hard to judge. The P9S is not a polymer frame, just metal with a non-load bearing grip and triggerguard attached.
 
good point about the P9S, my mistake on that. truthfully, i didn't know that Glock didn't use steel reinforcements. i thought they did. HK does however in their USP/USP-C. you can even see the steel in certain places. guess i'm glad i didn't buy a Glock. ;-)

Bobby
 
That's John or "Mr. Shirley" to you, if you can't get my user name right. You can call me Shirley when you carry arms by my side.

Since Tennifer is more effective as a rust preventative (to the nth degree) than bluing, I wouldn't be too concerned over the Glock metal as compared to much older steel...
 
In the interest of fact vs feeble speculations, and although I am sure it will likely meet a number of deaf ears herein, I offer the information below which comes from a forensic engineer, who posted this on the 'net a few years ago.

For those open-minded individuals who will read it, note that it addresses both the cost and longevity misinformation which some have posted above. For the rest, well... :rolleyes:

"I did a little research and got a smattering of information on the Glock plastic "formula". One source says "more highly guarded than the Coke formula". From 3 human and 5 technical sources, Glock uses an out-sourced proprietary hybrid polymer mix with a base of Nylon 6. The frames are cast and offer high strength, wear resistance, abrasion resistance, and good resiliency, good ductility and toughness. Fracture mechanics are excellent with defect ratios below 1. Do not compare to extruded Nylons because it is different. Casting prices range from $3-$50/pound depending on process and intricacy. Commerical price for hi-grade Nylon 6 is about $3.50/lb. Commerical price for hi-carbon steel is about $1.50/lb. Sounds to me like the Glock is actually a better buy than most steel guns. The Glock is considered highly-intricate due to imbedded metallic components. Straight Nylon 6 offers long term performance at elevated and depressed temperatures. Chemically stable in a majority of environments, attacked directly by very strong acids and bases (better than steel actually). UV exposure results in degradation over an extended period of time. 2-3% carbon black virtually eliminates UV degradation and Carbon-Black does not become readily absorbed in Nylons offering higly increased useful life spans. Loss of mechanical properties with 2% Carbon-Black is less than 0.05% on an elevated UV exposure test equivalent to approximately 100 years.

Tupperware is not made from Nylon BTW. So, that gives some properties of the base material. I do know that several stabilizers are added to increase UV and temperature resistance. I have considered running some tests to get a spectral analysis and then doing Deconvolution by Integration, but this only gets me the % concentration of each element, not the actual chain information. Deformulation of plastics is one tough mother. ... Hope this answered some questions."
 
Mr. John Shirley,

Sorry about that. This "tennifer" process you mention; couldn't that also be applied to a steel frame, thereby getting all those corrosion proofing and low maintence benefits?


9x19,

That is a genuinely interesting a insightful discovery of yours. I asked how long they would last, and you came up with a great technical answer. It doesn't answer all questions, like what happens when mechanical stress, UV and chemicals act in concert, but it does give more hope that ones $2000 Socom pistol might remain a collectors item long enough to be a genuine antique. Thank you.


The infrequent urge to turn my Glock into cash subsides.
 
Nothing, ever, answers all questions... except perhaps time.

Maybe your grand-kids will come to your tomb-stone to tell you how much they like shooting your Glock! :D
 
but it does give more hope that ones $2000 Socom pistol might remain a collectors item long enough to be a genuine antique
Click to expand...

Unfortunately 9x19's post referred to Glocks not HKs :neener:


interesting info there 9x19 :)




Kinda makes that scene in The Graduate even more prophetic, eh?
 
Aha, that is where the Steyr pistols come in....unlike the glock in which the steel slide rails are molded into the polymer, Steyr has steel rails on a steel frame...it just so happened that they wrapped it all up in polymer...I have no doubt that it will survive the test of time.
 
The Steyr will also have to get past its sear design and time.;)

9x19,
Actually, I'm hoping my great, great grandkids will be asking me how the old mechanical guns worked in person. Pray for the nanotechnological revolution.
 
Glock's current policy is to repair any defective Glock of any age free. Even if one had to pay to buy a new frame, after, say, 30 yrs. and a million or so rounds, one would still be ahead of the game.

This fretting about how long the polymer frames will last is silly.
 
A near-immortal Handy?!

Now there's a thought to keep the rest of us up nights! :D

Don't know how we'd ever have room on this tiny ball to fit that many generations without some of them being planted.
 
In relation to your inclusion of the P99

I happened to have recently bought one and after about a 240rd run through at the range, tore it down and cleaned it.

First of all, whatever money I might have saved, assuming the polymer is cheaper, I got back in a well concieved and put together gun. I've torn apart alot of weapons and nothing compares to the ease of a P99. An whatever your problems with polymer, which happens to be a incredibly durable substance, most of the load and stress bearing surfaces in the gun were still steel.

But lets get to something alittle more basic than that. THe polymer gun concept is reduced weight for its size. And it is exactly what it delivers.

Another point, in science there is a HUGE difference between plastic and polymer. Check Bobarino's post for a very good explaination. An example of polymer's excellent qualities is the serious examination by NASA of using polymers in a earth to orbit connection. Tell me, can steel do that? Nope. Polymers might bend and yeild more easily but they absorb alot of stress steel would shatter under.

Oh, and Mr. John Shirley, Shirley, John, or whatever you true name might be, how about thinking about how people might abreviate your name next time you chose one. Or better yet, don't use your real name... Lot less harder to be offended. Getting offended over something so stupid makes me wonder if baring arms next to you is such a bright idea. I have maybe ten people I would trust with arms guarding my back, but nearly everyone calls me by my last name, no "Mr." attached.
 
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