Plastic Fantastic - will there be Gats for the Grandkids?

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Broken anvils are more common than you think. ;)


Handy, yes, if I could have an all-steel pistol that performed just like the polymer version, but weighed exactly the same as well, I'd pay an extra $50 for it. In other news:

If I could have a piece of cheesecake with the same calories as a piece of celery, but it tasted exactly as good as real cheesecake, I'd take that too.

Also, if I could get a pickup that got the same fuel mileage as my car but with 18 inches of ground clearance and 300 lb/ft. of torque, I'd take that as well.

Obviously, the hitch in the plan is that you can't tell me how you plan to construct an all-steel pistol that will do everything the polymer pistol does and weighs the same. Steel weighs more than plastic.
 
You all missed the latest scientific evidence that will knock your socks off. Your Glock or any other platic hangun may be killing you slowly while we speak and you are not even aware of how it is doing this. I am not joking, you had better read this and read it well.

A young man was hired to clean out some plastic cages that contained mice in a laboratory. He accidentally used the wrong cleaner to clean the plastic cages and the cleaner deteriorated a the plastic which released a dangerous fume that is found in most super plastics like that of the Glock and other handguns. The mice contracted cancer and also when they reproduced it caused birth defects.

This by chance accident of using the wrong cleaner by hired help suddenly revealed a bombshell that shocked the scientific community for they on their own with all of their highly intellegent testing that has been going on for years had never discovered this deadly truth about the lethality of plastics.

So the next time you clean your Glock or other plastic pistol I would advise you to do it outdoors with plenty of fresh air and wear surgical gloves and a face mask with appropriate protective filters. Failure to do so will enable yours truly to be at an auction someday to buy up all of the ammo you never got a chance to shoot because of your early and untimely demise..,
 
Cite?
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I am sorry Tamara to keep sounding like a broken record but you must be joking.

This story has been plastered all over the news this week. I even heard it a dozen times or so on public radio while driving to work not to mention seeing it on TV .
 
BHP9,

....I'm sorry to keep sounding like a broken record, too, but once again: "Cite?"

"It's been all over the news" is not a cite.

A link would be good. Maybe the name of the lab that released the findings? The type of plastic and the type of cleaner involved would be helpful as well to determine relevance.
 
A link would be good. Maybe the name of the lab that released the findings? The type of plastic and the type of cleaner involved would be helpful as well to determine relevance.
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I have never been on public TV's web site but it is my understanding that they have one. All the news stories are probably to be found on it and I imagine you could even call your local affliated station. Their brodcasts are nationwide in every state. We have two local channels one in Cleveland and one in Youngstown and every other state probably has many more.
 
Also remember we are not just talking about handguns but a multitude of products that are made of plastics. Public radio said that this chemical is found in a wide variety of plastics that we use everyday and probably clean quite often in our homes. They did emphasize that many of the super plastics have this deadly chemcial in them.
 
Good night all , I have to go to another big gun show tomorrow and I will be wearing surgical gloves and a face mask in case I walk by any plastic handguns.

Just joking the new disease scuds from China will probably kill us all before the plastic handguns do.
 
I listen to NPR news daily. It's sorta like doing penance. Their news programs repeat several times daily. I haven't heard the first word on this. Next?
 
Don,

If a Steyr GB is a huge, 18rd, 5" barrel auto that weighs less than an alloy framed Beretta, doesn't that demonstrate that an all steel gun CAN weigh in the same neighborhood as polymer?

Frames made from welded sheet metal need not be at all heavy, and would be more durable than plastic or aluminum.

Keep in mind that Glock frames are so light in part because most of the firing mechanism is in the slide. The polymer SIG Pro is no lightweight. Enjoy your cheesecake.


Tamara and BHP9,

Here's a link to a Frontline (PBS) show that mentions a '97 study involving polycarbonate and cancer. I don't know if that's what y'all are talking about, but mouse cages are typically polycarb.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nature/etc/cron.html

And an interview for some depth:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nature/interviews/vomsaal.html

BHP9, I would assume with your fear of chemical carcinogens, you clean you guns with olive oil?
 
I think 9x19 nailed it "Perhaps you worry too much!" You should keep some zanix and a 6pack handy,it will help you to sleep :D
 
Good one, Handy.....

A bowl full of fresh veggies and a mag full of hollowpoints to make a salad, then extra-virgin olive oil for salad dressing and weapon cleaning! Whoa!.....we may be onto something here.
 
Handy, Thanks for creating such a lively discussion. I have wondered about the deterioration of polymer framed guns myself. Am I correct that even steel of the highest quality degrades over the years, at least to some extent; becomes brittle etc? I am sure of one thing; people are still selling, trading, and shooting the P9S, and VP70Z's are they not? However, in the context of "passing them down to your grandchildren", I believe steel is the way to go; at least the best way we have right now. At the same time, I own 4 polymer pistols, and I really don't worry about it. I guess I am just confused! I guess I might even quit laying my plastic guns in the direct sunlight for 40yrs at a time. One thing for sure, I don't believe that even Glock makes their frames from recycled milk jugs; and I am positive that HK doesn't.:scrutiny:
 
care-less, I wouldn't worry about any degradation of steel, absent exposure to weather or such problems as are brought about by salt water. Rust, ya know.

My first IPSC pistol was a 1912-manufacture 1911. Had an old Colt Navy .36; at around age 110 it shot just fine. Had a Jim Bridger rifle made in 1853; I didn't shoot it, but it looked and felt like everything was good to go. Lotsa old Krags still shooting, along with old Mausers...

:), Art
 
Handy, while I am far from a handgun expert, I would just observe a few things that give me pause regarding your analogy:

1. You compared a steel frame to an "alloy" (aluminum, yes?) frame, not steel to polymer.

2. The Beretta is renowned far and wide as a pistol that is bigger, chunkier, and heavier than it should be. Personally, I don't find the grip too big, the safety's just inconvenient. But I've never heard it cited as a lightweight pistol before (or a polymer frame, for that matter.)

3. I'd have to see it to be sure, but I suppose welded sheet metal would work. Seems to me that would negate a lot of the strength and durability advantages you tout for steel, plus being more difficult and expensive to manufacture.

I like my SIG a lot, and I want a Kimber when I can manage it. But to suggest that my G30 is weak or fragile in comparison doesn't pass my smell test.
 
Handy,

Thank you for the link. :cool:

Hmm. So bisphenol-A is, according to Dr. Vom Saal, a potent estrogen mimic, and can cause prostate problems after prolonged exposure... That's gotta suck. ;)

Anyhow, the advice from BHP9, "So the next time you clean your Glock or other plastic pistol I would advise you to do it outdoors..." may not be so hot, since sunlight is a known carcinogen. ;)



(Speaking of svelte steel guns, I picked up another BDM recently; I'm trying to get around to a minireview/rangereport...)
 
Maybe the BDM would make a better argument. According to Beretta.com, the 92 weighs 34.4 ounces unloaded. Various sites gave the weight of the Steyr GB as being anything from 29.5 ounces to 35 ounces empty. Depending on whom is asked, then, it's hard for me to say whether the GB is actually lighter than the 92. However, a quick check of Glock.com showed that the Glock 17 weighs 22 ounces empty. The G 21 weighs closer to a GB's lightest weight, at 26 ounces, but then, it's a .45!

Whether all this hairsplitting on weight really matters is another question, but the difference is there. If nothing else, you've managed to make me want a GB now. Thanks. . . . that was just what I needed. :rolleyes:
 
Jane's gives 850g unloaded for the 92 and 845g for the GB, and remember: if Jane's and reality disagree, it's reality that's in error... ;)


645g for the empty G21...
 
That's 29.98 ounces for the 92, 29.8 ounces for the GB, and 22.75 ounces for the G21, for those of you not fluent in Metric.
 
Yes, I should have mentioned the BDM as well. The point still stands, no one is or was TRYING to make a really light steel pistol. Two companies, using very different techniques, did so anyway.

What would happen if someone actually tried to make a light, steel pistol (I know, it's just horrifying to think about)?



Careless, the P9S is a steel framed pistol. The VP70 is polymer, though.
 
Handy,

The point still stands, no one is trying to make a really light steel pistol.
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Which leads to the question: "Why?" The (as you point out) reactionary segment of the market should fall all over it, and I doubt it would be any more expensive to make. The aluminum frames on SIGs and Berettas sure ain't done for cost savings...

To use your bicycle industry metaphor: why the use of alloys and composites instead of steel?

(30 oz empty for my BDM, BTW...)
 
OK, I think I get it--but if Jane's is accurate, that begs the question: Why is Beretta advertising their pistol as heavier than it really is? ;)
 
Sure Tamara, the reactionary crowd LOVES stamped construction.

Where's Boats and BHP9 clamoring "More stampings, more stampings!"

Stamping, welding, finish machining and finishing a steel frame probably would cost a little more than the old injection molder, don't cha think? The gun's construction would still be labeled "cheap" and new fangled.


The aluminum frames on Sigs and Berettas (and Rugers) are done for cost savings, at least in part. Aluminum does not wear out tooling and casting machinery at the rate steel does.

And I wouldn't call a Glock frame "composite". That really does a disservice to Kestral and Look. It's just plastic, really.
 
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