Plated bullet question.

[cheygriz]

I have no problems at 1300 FPS.

 

[Dudedog]

So far it sounds like I should be good to go if I run middle of the cast up to middle of the jacketed loading keeping my velocity under 1300 fps or so?

Yes this should be fine.
Most of the RMR plated have thicker plating so you should be good to go with any reasonable charge you want to use with them in everything but the .357 with 296 or #9.
You might or might not be OK with them in Full Power loads in the ,357.

Can't find the data at the moment but if I remember correctly 4.2gr of HP38 shot well with the 124 RNs in 9mm.
For .45 I liked both 4.7 and 5gr of HP38 with the RMR 230s.
This is chrono data for the older RMR 230rns in .45
The older ones were a different profile sort of a shorter nose, I needed to load them them to 1.22 or less to get them two plunk in both my ,.45s), new ones are a different shape and
the nose is more pointed-not as "stubby"

Mixed range brass, WIN LP
5" Citadel 1911
Charges as thrown after setting measure
String: 7
Date: 5/15/2016
Time: 10:18:19 AM
Grains: 230
Hi Vel: 733
Low Vel: 689
Ave Vel: 702
Ext Spread: 44
Std Dev: 17
45 4.7 HP38 RMR 230 1.21 (old RN)
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
733 168.59 274.37 (this one skewed the ES/SD numbers without it ES would have been 8, SD 4)
697 160.31 248.082
698 160.54 248.794
693 159.39 245.243
689 158.47 242.42

This makes a nice soft shooting practice load in .45 and were quite accurate.

 

[Texas10mm]

What powder are you going to use? If a Western/ Accurate, Ramshot / if you look at their load data the list many loads using Berry's and Rainier plated. Xtreme and many of the others should fall into the same loads.

I can tell you from experience that many lead loads that are starting loads will not fully cycle many 9mm pistols. The load is just too light. I have run into that with 3 powders and also on occasion with 380 Auto.

I've had that happen with lighter bullet weights. With 140+ gr I've had no problem. However those loads are right on the edge. I load a 150 gr RN in 9mm over 2.6 gr Ramshot Competition, starting load in the manual. That will cycle my Canik TP9SFx as long as I don't limp wrist the pistol. I'm going to go up to 2.7 gr and see how those work.

 

[rfwobbly]

Each maker of plated bullets uses a different thickness of plating... which in turn determines exactly how they behave in the gun. Consult the bullet maker's web site for insights into how to load.

Otherwise follow Brewer12345's sage advice.....

Start with high end of lead data or low end of jacketed.

 

[longdayjake]

What are you switching from?

 

[Tcruse]

I tested plated bullets in the 45ACP and you can use this data as a means of estimating. I purchased H&G 68 type plated bullets from Xtreme Bullets. I wanted to reduce the amount of lead being blown out of my barrel. I have heard that for plated bullets you just use the same data as for cast. This seems to be true for velocity, but at the lower end of pressure and recoil, where I am operating, while the velocities were close, function was not. Ejection and lockback were not reliable with a load of 200 Xtreme plated bullet and 3.7 grains Bulleye. This even though the cartridges were oiled. However, a test load of 4.0 grains Bullseye with the Xtreme plated bullet functioned, ejected and lockbacked for my test rounds as long as the weather was hot. When it got cold, I had the occasional failure to eject, failures like stovepipes. So I bumped the charge up to 4.2 grains of Bullseye. No failures to eject but the recoil went up. You can't have everything.


M1911 Les Baer Wadcutter new 13 lb recoil spring

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 3.5 grs Bullseye Lot 919 11/2005 WLP Brass mixed cases OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469"
23-Mar-16 T = 69 °F

Ave Vel = 664.9
Std Dev = 16.18
ES = 51.71
High = 686.1
Low = 63.3
N = 8

stove pipes, would not latch slide

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 3.5 grs Bullseye Lot 919 11/2005 WLP Nickle, mixed cases OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469"
8-Jun-15 T = 91 °F

Ave Vel = 660.6
Std Dev = 16.37
ES = 60.28
High = 695.6
Low = 635.3
N = 22

Classic Bullseye pistol 25 yard Rapid fire load. Functioned every round hot weather , light recoil, accurate However, in cold weather, failures to eject. Likely reason, Ultradot and mount added weight to the slide and the load does not have the power to function when temperatures drop.


200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 3.8 grs Bullseye Lot 919 11/2005 WLP Nickle, mixed cases OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases
8-Jun-15 T = 91 °F

Ave Vel = 714.4
Std Dev = 17.17
ES = 77.2
High = 755.1
Low = 677.9
N = 30

accurate

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 907 6/20/2005 WLP Brass mixed cases OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases

23-Mar-16 T = 69 °F

Ave Vel = 723.3
Std Dev = 9.48
ES = 28.65
High = 741.6
Low = 712.9
N = 10

Lot 907 has been consistently slower than lot 919

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 919 11/2005 WLP Nickle, mixed cases
OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases
8-Jun-15 T = 91 °F

Ave Vel = 742.9
Std Dev = 9.89
ES = 33.19
High = 760.6
Low = 727.5
N = 20

accurate

Classic Bullseye Pistol 50 yard slowfire load. Velocity of 740 fps provides consistent accuracy and function for a 50 yard load.

200 Xtreme Plated SWC 3.7 grs Bullseye Lot 907 6-20-2005 WLP Brass mixed cases OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases
23-Mar-16 T = 72 °F

Ave Vel = 651.7
Std Dev = 11.66
ES = 40.03
High = 676.9
Low = 636.9
N = 14

all ejected, slide failed to lock back once

200 Xtreme Plated SWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 907 6-20-2005 WLP Brass mixed cases OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases
23-Mar-16 T = 72 °F

Ave Vel = 686.8
Std Dev = 26.32
ES = 91.37
High = 730.4
Low = 639.1
N = 14

accurate, functioned and slide locked back

View attachment 812784

Yes, the recommendation of using "lead data" seems to be too conservative for accurate loads. For 9mm I usually aim for about 3/4 between low and max for SIE FMJ.
200g XTREME I like 5.2g International, 230g XTREME 5.0g International. Seating depth and crimp affect pressure and accuracy, so you can not just base things on powder weight.

 

[mdi]

Load data is becoming more plentiful as plated bullets become more widely used. Western lists a good selection of plated bullets for about all their pistol powders. Hodgdon is also starting to list some Berry's. The more confusing part is with Berry's Hollow Base bullets as they are longer than solid base bullets and the seating depth isn't always the same and neither is the load data if one looks thru Westerns data.

I use plated in my auto loaders just because of the difficulties many experience loading cast lead in the 9mm pistols. When I first started with the 9mm I was going to try and load cast lead until I started reading and following on the Cast Boolits.com forum. I quickly changed my mind. The plated work very well and are easy to load in the auto loaders with a taper crimp. Though I would not be loading them in revolvers that require a roll crimp. Also when comparing cast lead to plated bullets price wise I don't see much of a difference and yes some of each can be found cheaper than the others when there are sales.

You are right about data becoming more available, but I still see at least 2 per week and often more, questions on forums like; "what powder do I use for plated bullets?", "I bought some XXX plated bullets and can't find any loads?", "how do I crimp my plated bullets for my 38 Special?". Information is out there, but not easy enough to find for new plated bullet users/reloaders.

Perhaps 9mm cast bullet loads are more difficult to iron out, but not impossible. I managed with simple step by step troubleshooting and soon arrived at a good shooting load for my 3, 9mms. I know a bunch of fellers that have a saying about not doing something because someone said something negative; "Condemnation prior to investigation", not a very good way to live...

 

[kmw1954]

mdi I understand your points completely and also pretty much in agreement. There needs to be more done with plated as I see that being more the future than with cast lead, which is becoming more restrictive every year. Many new indoor ranges won't allow it because of lead contamination and actually finding salvage lead is also harder to find because it to is now considered a hazardous material. The scrap yards I've contacted in both Illinois and Wisconsin will not sell recycled lead w/o a hazmat license. Also Illinois and Minnesota have banned the use of lead wheel weights so that is forever gone.

Also I love the CYA statement found on all the plated bullets websites to just follow published load data for Lead or Jacketed bullets of the same weight. Then when the subject comes up in forums such as this the battle begins with some sighting use cast while the other state Jacketed. When the truth is plated bullets are not either cast or jacket, they are plated. Sure many loads will overlap between the 3 types but some may also be too low or too high. One can see the difference just by looking through the data listings posted by Western with any of the Accurate or Ramshot powders. They even list different load data for the same weight bullet made by different manufactures using the same powders. Then to add in the difference in bullet shapes for the same weight and how does that effect setting bullet OAL? Also as mentioned is the plating it's self, some is thicker and some is harder which also effect how the bullet is going to perform. So yes it can all become very confusing for someone new.

As I stated I researched bullet casting when I began to hand load again and found the Cast Boolits website. I did a lot of reading trying to find out what would be needed to start casting, what tools and processes worked best. Then more specific, how to reload for the 9mm. From all I read the 9mm must be the most difficult of all calibers to load lead for mostly because of the wide variations in barrel diameters amongst manufactures. For that reason I passed up casting for the 9mm and went with plated bullets.

At this point in the game I am still working up loads with powders and bullets for the 380 and the 45acp and once that has been completed I my just go back and start trying some commercial cast lead for the 45 and maybe the 380. The 9mm I'm just going to keep enjoying what I'm doing with the plated bullets.

 

[Wildbillz]

Missed the quote. Sorry

WB

 

[Wildbillz]

What are you switching from?

Cast lead Rn for the most part.

WB

 

[mdi]

Not arguing, just pointing out. 9mm doesn't vary in barrel dimensions much more than an other caliber, and if so, the only difference would be in obtaining a sizing die that fits your bbl (I have 9mms, 38s, and 357s so I have sizing dies in .356", .357", 358" and .359", the last I honed out a .358" die). When buying commercial cast you need to get the right diameter for your gun as some commercial casters will offer a few different diameters per caliber. I read/heard all the complaining about cast in 9mm, but I also read the solutions. I first determined a good diameter, then an alloy, then a good load. I use the same lube I use for my Magnum bullets, which works for my 9mm so I didn't do any experimenting. I really like to reload so any "extra" reloading/experimenting is a good thing.

I'm still not a plated fan (plated is just a thin copper coating over a cast or swaged lead bullet and have many of the same characteristics of cast lead)...

 

[kmw1954]

Not arguing, just pointing out. ...

Nor am I. Just pointing out the reasoning behind my decision to not load cast lead and to go plated. When I first started loading back in the 80's I was just loading for 38/357 and all I ever shot were either Speer or Hornady lead. Either SWC or some sort of wadcutter. It was great and lead was cheap. Not here to try and change anyone's shooting or loading habits. Just sharing information.

 

[mdi]

And I'm just pointing out how easy it is to reload 9mm with cast bullets.

You will have a bunch of problems if you try to load factory swaged bullets in your 9mm...

Have a good day KMW!

 

[kmw1954]

mdi, following at Cast Boolits I see many who successfully load 9mm so yeah I know it is done, it's just at this time I'm not prepared to put in the effort to pursue it.

 

[mdi]

Didn't mean to sound argumentative. Sometimes I just get "wrapped up" in trying to explain myself. Not trying to push or change anyone's reloading methods (after all it's a hobby to be enjoyed), just sharing my experience...

I've been called many things and one is a "Stubborn Old Fart"...

 

[kmw1954]

mdi, it's all good! I may be inheriting a 38 S&W revolver soon and when that comes I will be loading cast for it as there are a few local commercial casters I the area and it will be nice to support them. But at the same time I have no problem shooting plated in my pistols. Especially at the distances and speeds I'm shooting at.

Everyone think about this. If plated bullets had been around as long as cast lead I'm certain the data would be there for plated.

 

[noylj]

Why waste money on plated?
You can get great jacketed bullets for the same price from precision delta in bulk, and cast bullets are also generally more accurate and cost even less. Get 0.357-0.358" cast bullets for 9mm. Coated cast bullets will almost never lead the barrel.

 

[Walkalong]

I've been called many things and one is a "Stubborn Old Fart"...

I have been called worse than that, heck, I have answered to worse than that.

 

[Walkalong]

If plated bullets had been around as long as cast lead I'm certain the data would be there for plated.

They have been around long enough, the powder companies just haven't done a lot of pressure testing for them. There is data out there, just not nearly as much as jacketed or lead.

Why waste money on plated?
You can get great jacketed bullets for the same price from precision delta in bulk,

That is sadly getting to be true. Back in the day plated was just a little more than lead, like coated is today, but as they gained in popularity they have gone up and up.

A lot of reloaders are not looking for Bullseye type loads (We can't shoot that well) and only need an accurate enough bullet/load for their applications. Plated used to fill this role better than they do today simply because of the price. You can easily buy jacketed .38 Spl and 9MM bullets for the price of plated these days.

I researched bullet prices for .45 Colt recently as I am getting low, and the X-Treme 255 I had been plinking with was more than the Zero 230 Gr jacketed bullet intended for .45 ACP. I had some leftover from .45 ACP and they shot just fine in .45 Colt with a taper crimp.

 

[LiveLife]

I'm still not a plated fan (plated is just a thin copper coating over a cast or swaged lead bullet and have many of the same characteristics of cast lead)...

I treat plated bullets as full-length gas checked lead bullets.

Depending on brand, thickness of that gas check and lead/alloy core can vary quite a bit which affect accuracy and usable velocity - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-3#post-10470195

Like many other members, in recent years I have bought RMR jacketed bullets on sales/promotions below the cost of plated, coated lead and even lubed lead bullets.

 

[kmw1954]

I have been loading plated for a couple years now and I like them in my auto's. I have never ordered bullets online until I bought from Bullets.com when they were going out of business. Otherwise it has been from Cabela's when they have had Berry's or Xtreme on sale. But again that was before I found out about RMR. For now I am still set until after the New Year and probably until close to spring as my shooting companion just had her knee replaced recently so we haven't been out much as of late.

Now with the changes at Cabela's and Xtreme with the chapter 8 I will be looking for a new source.

 

[Eddietruett]

I shoot with a couple "really accurate" bullseye shooters that tell me they have documented an accuracy decrease with coated bullets over lead or plated. Also lead is most accurate of the three as they find. So far I have been happy with Hi Tec coated in 38 SPL, 9MM, 40, and 45 ACP and can not tell if there is an accuracy issue. The plated bullets have fallen to the wayside in my reloading room these days. YMMV

Not to start an argument, but everything I've read says that plated bullets will give slower velocity than lead as well as coated lead. I know it works that way with the plated bullets I've used in .38/.357. When my girlfriend started shooting I loaded up some 158gr SWC with 3.0gr Bullseye for a soft recoil for her to start with. Tried Xtreme 158gr THP with the same charge and started having squibs that would not exit a 6" barrel. Initially thought it was a few just didn't get any powder but that was not the case. Shooting the same loads through the chronograph I was getting around 700fps with the lead and the plated was around 550-600fps depending on brand of plated. Maybe I just go a bad batch.

 

[Texas10mm]

Not to start an argument, but everything I've read says that plated bullets will give slower velocity than lead as well as coated lead. I know it works that way with the plated bullets I've used in .38/.357. When my girlfriend started shooting I loaded up some 158gr SWC with 3.0gr Bullseye for a soft recoil for her to start with. Tried Xtreme 158gr THP with the same charge and started having squibs that would not exit a 6" barrel. Initially thought it was a few just didn't get any powder but that was not the case. Shooting the same loads through the chronograph I was getting around 700fps with the lead and the plated was around 550-600fps depending on brand of plated. Maybe I just go a bad batch.

Copper grips the barrel harder than lead. Plated bullets do give lower velocities than lead with the same powder charge.

 

[DownEaster]

I have been very happy running Rainier 124gr HP in 9mm at mid level jacketed loadings. Very good accuracy and perfect function.

 

[egd]

Off topic-coincidence. I was watching an episode of North Woods Law yesterday and they explained the downeaster area of Maine. You have a beautiful state.