Bottom Gun
Member
The local news aired some film of what appeared to be bullet holes in the wall just above the floor.
Plea for help turns deadly
- Thread starter AZTOY
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TheeBadOne
Member
objectivity:
expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations <objective art> <an objective history of the war> <an objective judgment> b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum
expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations <objective art> <an objective history of the war> <an objective judgment> b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum
RustyHammer
Member
:banghead:
Hutch
Member
I'm with Quartus on this matter. Any drinking, beyond say, champagne on New Years Eve, by a 15 year old IS a serious problem, whether the parents like to admit it or not. Normal? It's not normal for a 15 year old to spend six weeks in alcohol rehab. I'm sorry for their loss, but unless more evidence is produced, I'd say the parents are trying "The best defense is a good offense" approach.
KRAUTGUNNER
Member
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- Dec 24, 2002
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- 255
The little punk wanted to die!
The cops just made his deathwish come true.
What's the problem?
The cops just made his deathwish come true.
What's the problem?
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
It's a parenting thing. An awful lot of parents wouldn't understand if you explained it to them.
I'm wondering why the reporter wasn't asking questions such as:
Where did he get the beer? Can anyone get beer? Why is it so easy? Where did the knife come from? Can anyone get a knife...just like that? Do knives need to be that sharp? Wouldn't this child be alive if all knives had safety devices installed. Who made that knife? What responsibility do they bear in this?
Do police bullets have to be that deadly? Who manufactured the defective Taser? Were the cops fluent in Spanish mental health terminology?
Sorry...I'm growing frustrated these days.
Where did he get the beer? Can anyone get beer? Why is it so easy? Where did the knife come from? Can anyone get a knife...just like that? Do knives need to be that sharp? Wouldn't this child be alive if all knives had safety devices installed. Who made that knife? What responsibility do they bear in this?
Do police bullets have to be that deadly? Who manufactured the defective Taser? Were the cops fluent in Spanish mental health terminology?
Sorry...I'm growing frustrated these days.
gunsmith
member
Cops are not shrinks
a stab wound from a 15yr old
can kill/maim the same as a stab wound
from a 40yr old.
the parents fault/kids fault
a stab wound from a 15yr old
can kill/maim the same as a stab wound
from a 40yr old.
the parents fault/kids fault
I'm appalled at the callous insults over the death of a person. It is brave to say that
over the Internet. That a kid died is a tragedy for him, the family and the cops who
shoot him. All will suffer. So I regard those who just raved at the kid and seem to
applaud his death as despicable. May you have to deal with an out of control family
member who is suicidial some time.
As far as the story - there is no way to tell yet. Forsenics will quickly determine
how he was shot. If he was on the ground or lunging forward. Cop haters will blame
the cops and mindless cop lovers will blame the kid.
I've been in this one. I have talked to a sucidial knife wielder on two occassions for several hours at
personal risk to myself as I didn't want to call the cops till the persons were disarmed.
I frankly didn't trust them not to cycle into a macho challenge and kill the person.
I could have shot the people myself if that was the preferred outcome. Instead I talked
them down.
If forensics show the shooting was not justified then hang them. If it was justified then we
should pray for all concerned and not be full of such childish hate.
over the Internet. That a kid died is a tragedy for him, the family and the cops who
shoot him. All will suffer. So I regard those who just raved at the kid and seem to
applaud his death as despicable. May you have to deal with an out of control family
member who is suicidial some time.
As far as the story - there is no way to tell yet. Forsenics will quickly determine
how he was shot. If he was on the ground or lunging forward. Cop haters will blame
the cops and mindless cop lovers will blame the kid.
I've been in this one. I have talked to a sucidial knife wielder on two occassions for several hours at
personal risk to myself as I didn't want to call the cops till the persons were disarmed.
I frankly didn't trust them not to cycle into a macho challenge and kill the person.
I could have shot the people myself if that was the preferred outcome. Instead I talked
them down.
If forensics show the shooting was not justified then hang them. If it was justified then we
should pray for all concerned and not be full of such childish hate.
Someone help me out here. I don't understand why the parents are blaming the cops. THEY called the cops!!! When you call in the police the implication is that the situation is now beyond your control and you are asking for help from an entity who are authorised to employ deadly force at their descretion. If YOU call the cops then YOU are forfeiting your right to determine how the situation is to be handled. It is now up to the police to deal with it as they are trained to do. I believe people need to learn how to solve there own problems amongst themselves. Police are "law enforcement" who protect the "general public" and will use deadly force. If the parents were that worried that their kid might get shot then they should have phone a shrink instead ...
(Not a cop 'lover' but it sounds like they got a call and they did their job).
(Not a cop 'lover' but it sounds like they got a call and they did their job).
denfoote
Member
Sucicide by cop!!!
I too have been following this, both in the AZ Republic and on KFYI AM 550. Prima facia, it looks like an all to often acted out scenerio: "sucicide by cop".
But with the testimony by the parents, we MAY have a case of police brutality.
However, it has long been established that Arizona LEO's will shoot first and ask questions later!!! A relic from teratorial days, I assume!!
The way Arizona law is written, if a person, not just an LEO, acting as a reasonable persion, perceves that his life, or the life of a third party is in grave danger of loss of life, the use of deadly force is justified!! All people who carry a concealed firearm in the state of AZ are taught this in the mandatory CCW training!!
Whether this youth was sucicidal or not, when he brandished a deadly implement (defined as an ordanary object, such as a kitchen knife, that is intended to be used as a weapon, such that a reasonable person would believe that such impliment would, in fact, be used in such a manner so as to pose a grave threat to the intended victim), the use of deadly force was indeed justified!!
With that said, it becomes a case of "don't bring a knife to a gun fight"!!!
Source:
"The Arizona Gun Owners Guide".
By Alan Korwin
Bloomfield Press
12629 N. Tatum Blvd #440T
Phx, AZ, 85032
Ph (602)996-4020
I too have been following this, both in the AZ Republic and on KFYI AM 550. Prima facia, it looks like an all to often acted out scenerio: "sucicide by cop".
But with the testimony by the parents, we MAY have a case of police brutality.
However, it has long been established that Arizona LEO's will shoot first and ask questions later!!! A relic from teratorial days, I assume!!
The way Arizona law is written, if a person, not just an LEO, acting as a reasonable persion, perceves that his life, or the life of a third party is in grave danger of loss of life, the use of deadly force is justified!! All people who carry a concealed firearm in the state of AZ are taught this in the mandatory CCW training!!
Whether this youth was sucicidal or not, when he brandished a deadly implement (defined as an ordanary object, such as a kitchen knife, that is intended to be used as a weapon, such that a reasonable person would believe that such impliment would, in fact, be used in such a manner so as to pose a grave threat to the intended victim), the use of deadly force was indeed justified!!
With that said, it becomes a case of "don't bring a knife to a gun fight"!!!
Source:
"The Arizona Gun Owners Guide".
By Alan Korwin
Bloomfield Press
12629 N. Tatum Blvd #440T
Phx, AZ, 85032
Ph (602)996-4020
BluesBear
member
Suicide by Cop
Sounds like another case of someone threatening suicide to get attention. Looks like he got plenty of attention.
And the the state of Arizona just had it's average IQ raised a few points.
But I do feel for the officers who were forced into this.
Sounds like another case of someone threatening suicide to get attention. Looks like he got plenty of attention.
And the the state of Arizona just had it's average IQ raised a few points.
But I do feel for the officers who were forced into this.
Bottom Gun
Member
Last night's TV report said the autopsy determined the kid had been hit 10 times.
Nothing was said about whether he was standing or on the ground when he was shot.
Nothing was said about whether he was standing or on the ground when he was shot.
Joe Demko
Member
I'm honored to be sharing the same board with people who are so perceptive that they know the dead kid was "a little punk" and "a bad kid" and that "the state of Arizona just had it's average IQ raised a few points." Honestly, people who can make such penetratingly insightful conclusions from so little information are amazing, even awesome.
AZTOY
Member
10 wounds found on boy killed by police
Private pathologist hired for autopsy
Senta Scarborough
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 2, 2003 12:00 AM
Police shot a Mesa teenager 10 times as he held a knife and threatened suicide at his parents' home last week, the family's attorney said Monday.
Edward Fitzhugh, attorney for the family of Mario Albert Madrigal Jr., said Valley pathologist Dr. Richard Trepeta was hired to perform an independent autopsy on the 15-year-old.
The results showed 10 gunshot wounds, Fitzhugh said, most in the upper body with one grazing his arm. The Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office has not released its autopsy results.
Bill FitzGerald of the Maricopa County Attorney's Office said he would not comment until the investigation is done.
Madrigal was killed Aug. 25 after his parents called police for help with the teenager, who had grabbed a kitchen knife and was threatening suicide. Police and family members dispute whether the boy was approaching police with a knife when three officers opened fire.
Kelvin Smith, president of the Mesa Police Association, said, "I don't think it is unusual for an officer to fire three or four rounds depending on the circumstances."
Smith would not talk specifically about this shooting. But he said, "The number of rounds fired doesn't explain what happened."
He added most Valley law enforcement officers carry semiautomatic weapons, which fire rounds more quickly than revolvers. It is unknown what type of guns the officers used in the shooting.
Smith said it is important that a complete investigation be performed by Mesa police, the County Attorney's Office and the medical examiner.
"Unfortunately that may take a little longer than some people would like," Smith said. "People need to be patient for them to do their job."
Fitzhugh said the big question is: "How could these officers not handle a situation like that with a 5-foot-5, 115-pound boy any better?"
He said that when officers arrived, Madrigal's mother was talking to him, calming him. The officers were outside the house and Madrigal and his mother were inside, he said.
"In Rambo-style, these officers escalated the situation. One of the officers pulled Mario's mother away from him, and right after that the shooting began," Fitzhugh said. "They arrived in a situation where a mother is talking to her son. Even in the most extreme situation, she wasn't in danger."
Fitzhugh said he believes police shot 15 times because 15 shell casings were found, according to a warrant property list.
Fitzhugh also said it is inappropriate for police and the County Attorney's Office to be selective about what information is released in the case, asking why the 911 tape, which is believed to have recorded most of the incident, has not been made available.
But Mesa City Councilman Rex Griswold said he is willing to be patient. "I have a great deal of faith in (County Attorney) Rick Romley and his ability to get to the truth," said Griswold, chairman of Mesa's Police Committee. "He has demonstrated this process many times in the past."
On Friday, the three members of the Madrigal family, including Mario's 10-year-old brother, were interviewed by the FBI as part of the agency's preliminary investigation into possible civil rights violations by the three officers.
"We are very happy that the FBI has been involved at this early stage and will conduct their own investigation," Fitzhugh said.
The parents still want the officers involved in the shooting to undergo blood testing while it is timely, but Mesa police have refused.
The family will hire its own experts to review the evidence from the scene once Mesa releases the results of its investigation, Fitzhugh said.
"They saw no need for what happened to their son," Fitzhugh said, "and they are still asking for a rational, reasonable explanation of why these officers did what they did."
Reach the reporter at [email protected] or (602) 444-7937.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0902madrigal02.html
Private pathologist hired for autopsy
Senta Scarborough
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 2, 2003 12:00 AM
Police shot a Mesa teenager 10 times as he held a knife and threatened suicide at his parents' home last week, the family's attorney said Monday.
Edward Fitzhugh, attorney for the family of Mario Albert Madrigal Jr., said Valley pathologist Dr. Richard Trepeta was hired to perform an independent autopsy on the 15-year-old.
The results showed 10 gunshot wounds, Fitzhugh said, most in the upper body with one grazing his arm. The Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office has not released its autopsy results.
Bill FitzGerald of the Maricopa County Attorney's Office said he would not comment until the investigation is done.
Madrigal was killed Aug. 25 after his parents called police for help with the teenager, who had grabbed a kitchen knife and was threatening suicide. Police and family members dispute whether the boy was approaching police with a knife when three officers opened fire.
Kelvin Smith, president of the Mesa Police Association, said, "I don't think it is unusual for an officer to fire three or four rounds depending on the circumstances."
Smith would not talk specifically about this shooting. But he said, "The number of rounds fired doesn't explain what happened."
He added most Valley law enforcement officers carry semiautomatic weapons, which fire rounds more quickly than revolvers. It is unknown what type of guns the officers used in the shooting.
Smith said it is important that a complete investigation be performed by Mesa police, the County Attorney's Office and the medical examiner.
"Unfortunately that may take a little longer than some people would like," Smith said. "People need to be patient for them to do their job."
Fitzhugh said the big question is: "How could these officers not handle a situation like that with a 5-foot-5, 115-pound boy any better?"
He said that when officers arrived, Madrigal's mother was talking to him, calming him. The officers were outside the house and Madrigal and his mother were inside, he said.
"In Rambo-style, these officers escalated the situation. One of the officers pulled Mario's mother away from him, and right after that the shooting began," Fitzhugh said. "They arrived in a situation where a mother is talking to her son. Even in the most extreme situation, she wasn't in danger."
Fitzhugh said he believes police shot 15 times because 15 shell casings were found, according to a warrant property list.
Fitzhugh also said it is inappropriate for police and the County Attorney's Office to be selective about what information is released in the case, asking why the 911 tape, which is believed to have recorded most of the incident, has not been made available.
But Mesa City Councilman Rex Griswold said he is willing to be patient. "I have a great deal of faith in (County Attorney) Rick Romley and his ability to get to the truth," said Griswold, chairman of Mesa's Police Committee. "He has demonstrated this process many times in the past."
On Friday, the three members of the Madrigal family, including Mario's 10-year-old brother, were interviewed by the FBI as part of the agency's preliminary investigation into possible civil rights violations by the three officers.
"We are very happy that the FBI has been involved at this early stage and will conduct their own investigation," Fitzhugh said.
The parents still want the officers involved in the shooting to undergo blood testing while it is timely, but Mesa police have refused.
The family will hire its own experts to review the evidence from the scene once Mesa releases the results of its investigation, Fitzhugh said.
"They saw no need for what happened to their son," Fitzhugh said, "and they are still asking for a rational, reasonable explanation of why these officers did what they did."
Reach the reporter at [email protected] or (602) 444-7937.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0902madrigal02.html
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