Pleaase tell me I'm wrong about Americans today.

[joab]

No, you're forwarding a a view of history that says those people who were here "first" were near perfect dwellers in harmony with nature

Where did I say that?

What he said was that WE did not institutionalize slavery against the Amerinds, they did that to themselves,

Where did I say that we institutionalized anything. Because we didn't invent it must mean that we didn't practice it

against the Amerinds,

Where did I even suggest that we enslaved the Indians

Do you even try to debate the actual point

What point would that be. That we didn't start it so it was OK or that everybody else does it so it's OK

Please stop trying to twist my words, you're not very good at it

 

[Bigjake]

i though you surrendered like 3 posts back....??


and to the other guy that said:

The cultures with the highest levels of technology will always be the dominant ones. Through out history it has been thus and will always be so.

tell that to the romans....

 

[joab]

i though you surrendered like 3 posts back.

Where did I say that?

 

[2nd Amendment]

Where did I say that?

These wre the same legends and heroes that systematically exterminated an entire culture and enslaved another and built their country on the backs of people who were not allowed to reap the benefits. The movies showed all that was good and none of the bad.

You indulged in the same kind of stereotype you then accused others of. Hand in hand with the 'extermination" fantasy is the one that says the Amerinds were peaceful cohhabitors with nature. All the same revisionist drivel.

Where did I say that we institutionalized anything. Because we didn't invent it must mean that we didn't practice it

Implicit in your italicized quote above, invention having nothing to do with it.

Where did I even suggest that we enslaved the Indians

Again implicit in your above italicized quote. Start trotting out revisionist myths and you open yourself up to a whole train of misunderstandings.

What point would that be. That we didn't start it so it was OK or that everybody else does it so it's OK

Well actually no, the point would be this thread had nothing to do with slavery and yet you injected it into the thread utterly off topic. The point would be that based on your revisionist history of the Amerinds nobody really has any interest in your views on slavery in a thread that has nothing to do with slavery.

Please stop trying to twist my words, you're not very good at it

Actually if I wanted to twist your words I am incredibly skilled at it. Fact is, it isn't necessary here.

 

[WT]

CT - so you are saying you are willing to die, forego your family, so that someone has the right to smoke dope?

 

[rhubarb]

Am I the one out of step? Are we past the power curve and there is no turning back? Am I stressing and wasting my time trying in vain?

My first thought was, "Preaching to the choir."

Then the congregation started nitpicking your preaching and going off on tangents. Kinda like what's happening in our national legislature and federal courts. Maybe, even here, you're out of step. Maybe you are stressing out and wasting your time trying in vain. :banghead:

C'mon, drink your koolaid.

 

[joab]

Actually if I wanted to twist your words I am incredibly skilled at it

You have failed miserably here

exterminated an entire culture and enslaved another

Pretty much implies that I am speaking of another culture as in other than the one we destroyed

Because I point out that we exterminated a culture that somehow implies that I think they were all nature loving PETA members. Talk about your inductive leaps.

Whether are not they were "Noble Redmen" or " Heathen Savages" never even entered the conversation until you and your buddy pointed out how inferior they were

You of course point out that they were on a lower social evolutionary scale than us so it was OK to eradicate their culture

There were hundreds of violent, usually primitive, warring tribes who often filed their teeth into points, the better to inflict damage up close and personal. They killed each other, they killed animals, they wrecked areas in their building and their fires and their waste and debris.

By the way " To the Victor Goes the Spoils" has always been OK with me

Your buddy also pointed out that we did not enslave a people because they were already property when we met them. I'm sorry but that logic escapes me

They were enslaved by neighboring tribes, not by Americans. America used slave labor, sure. Even expanded and helped make it more profitable, sure.

But at least he was smart enough to address the correct race

The point would be that based on your revisionist history of the Amerinds nobody really has any interest in your views on slavery in a thread that has nothing to do with slavery.

So from now on are you the one I see to get permission to post

Why will you not address what I actually wrote.If ,as you say, you have no interest in my opinion then ignore it and move on instead of adding your own spin and launching personal attacks .

 

[2nd Amendment]

Pretty much implies that I am speaking of another culture as in other than the one we destroyed

It's ambiguous. You start off with a fallacy then expect the reader to know where you leave behind fantasy for reality. If you meant otherwise fine, but don't blame your poor technique on anyone else.

Because I point out that we exterminated a culture that somehow implies that I think they were all nature loving PETA members. Talk about your inductive leaps.

And here you do something similar again. You start off with a fallacy and expect the reader to know when reality kicks in again. We did not "exterminate a culture". Our ancestors of several different cultures fought a long mwar of attrition with a variety of Amerind cultures and eventually won. BIG difference.

Whether are not they were "Noble Redmen" or " Heathen Savages" never even entered the conversation until you and your buddy pointed out how inferior they were

More fantasy. perhaps you should go back and read the part where I went to considerable length to emphasize they, the Amerinds, were just human, with all the same failures and such that come with being average, not inferior.

You of course point out that they were on a lower social evolutionary scale than us so it was OK to eradicate their culture

Another bizarre leap. They were on a lower technological level. Some were certainly on a lower social order. Both contributed to their defeat but neither made it "ok" any more so than any victory in war is "ok". Your fixation on the word "eradicate" simply muddies the water further.

Now if you want to fixate on how terrible you think the US was and how wrong to have built this country here without official signed permission of the previous residents how about starting another thread? This one is about where the US is at today, in case you hadn't noticed.

By the way " To the Victor Goes the Spoils" has always been OK with me

Then your argument is...?

Your buddy also pointed out that we did not enslave a people because they were already property when we met them. I'm sorry but that logic escapes me

Wasn't what he said at all.

Quote:
They were enslaved by neighboring tribes, not by Americans. America used slave labor, sure. Even expanded and helped make it more profitable, sure.

But at least he was smart enough to address the correct race

You do understand that both African tribes and Amerind tribes enslaved members of other tribes, thus the reference can apply to either, right?

Why will you not address what I actually wrote.If ,as you say, you have no interest in my opinion then ignore it and move on instead of adding your own spin and launching personal attacks .

What personal attack?

What Spin?

I keep quoting your own words in rebuttal in a thread on a totally different subject than your fixation and you keep altering the storyline, but I'm not addressing what you wrote? Ok...

 

[joab]

This one is about where the US is at today, in case you hadn't noticed.

By comparing it to where it was, in case you didn't notice

I grew up hearing about the legend of the Alamo and Texas heroes of the period.And I watched John Wayne movies, Andy Griffith as sheriff and war movies were Americans were the good guys. In school I was taught the founders were heroes, with the emphasis on their good points not their bad. I grew up believing in patriotism (but not blind allegiance) and that giving your life for our country as our revolutionary war heroes did was a great honor.

perhaps you should go back and read the part where I went to considerable length to emphasize they, the Amerinds, were just human, with all the same failures and such that come with being average

Must have been this part

usually primitive, warring tribes who often filed their teeth into points, the better to inflict damage up close and personal. They killed each other, they killed animals, they wrecked areas in their building and their fires and their waste and debris.

Our ancestors of several different cultures fought a long mwar of attrition with a variety of Amerind cultures and eventually won.

And accepted their surrender and then broke treaty at every turn

It's ambiguous. You start off with a fallacy then expect the reader to know where you leave behind fantasy for reality. If you meant otherwise fine, but don't blame your poor technique on anyone else.

exterminated an entire culture and enslaved another

Notice the word andtogether with the another pretty much signifies that I am talking about another group of people.

If you had read the entire post, instead of just the part that you could launch your tirade against, you would see that the point of my post was that "America is now as it has always been" I even used that line in the post
.
Instead of addressing the validity of my observation you chose to call me an undereducated leftist.
You are obviously incapable of carrying on a reasonable conversation.
If the conversation does not provide you with the correct ammo to rail against you make it up.

So yes, Bigjake, now I do surrender. Not because 2A bested me, his comments only vaguely addressed mine, but because it feels so good when you stop banging your head against the wall.

 

[bjbarron]

I would be aware, but not overly worried. Our little constitution is the only one in the world that was created from the bottom up...it is not government friendly, and the more the government gets involved with it, the more messed up the government gets.

Here in the People's Republic of New Joisey, I am surrounded by leftoids totally dependant on the government. They wouldn't know how to take their own destiny in their hands if (or when) their lives depended on it. They would be worthless in any confrontation, and can only be depended on to make impotent noises.

Even during the Revolution and the War of Northern Agression, there were huge numbers of people who ignored the whole noisy thing. And if things really get bad...

Leaders will always step forward.

As the anti-American moonbats/wingnuts get closer and closer to their goal of a completely disarmed and subject population...more and more will resist, relocate, and band together.

Remember, it matters little if 70% of the population are sheep...they will always be sheep. That still leaves 90 million people say no.

The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed - where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once. - Appeals Court Justice Alex Kozinski

The US cannot last forever. Our job is to insure that whatever landing the country has is a soft one. The softest one I can imagine is a world government founded on the principles of the United States, not the principles of a kleptocratic United Nations...either that or a starship ticket to New Texas.

When you see forums like this drop off the Internet. When you see people leaving the political parties in droves. When it gets real quiet all of a sudden cuz all your neighbors moved to Montana...

I'll meet you at Bowman's Tower on the Pennsy side of the river and we'll start from there.

 

[2nd Amendment]

By comparing it to where it was, in case you didn't notice

You're comparing it to the way you choose to perceive it was. That's the problem.

Must have been this part

etc...

So noting the absolute facts that they were indeed often savage and violent, warred with and abused each other and took lousy care of their enviroment means they were inferior? Again, that's a stretch at the least. You realize, too, that to say otherwise is to claim the very position I took you to task over, right?

OK, what else...

The Amerinds of various tribes also broke numerous treaties. So if treaty breaking means the Europeans were Evul then Amerind treaty breaking absolves them of that, right?

As I noted and you apparently ignored, BOTH Amerind and African tribes took slaves of other tribes. "US" policy, or what became such(French, British, etc), not only helped African slave trading but encouraged Amerind slave taking at various times(hell, you realize scalping actually originated with the...French{?}...and {supposedly}took the place of slaving in some cases?) Again, you DO know this stuff, right? Now I admit I too assume he was talking about African tribes at this point and was probably wrong previously but the fact is it's just an assumption on your part and mine.

America is not as it has always been. It's not even close. Every part of it is different, for better or worse, which I also covered in some detail and you, again, avoided and ignored. And America was never as you stereotyped it, any moreso than it was the America of the Wild West movie stereotypes(Still wondering how Andy fits in there...) you oppose.

You did beat me on one point though. I was sitting here telling the wife I was getting a headache from the virtual wall I was beating my head against and that this was it for me.

 

[fjolnirsson]

pointed out that we did not enslave a people because they were already property when we met them. I'm sorry but that logic escapes me

Not at all. We didn't enslave them. We merely used what was already happening to serve as cheap labor. We also had slaves of european descent here in America, as well as endentures of many races.
And I certainly didn't suggest the American Indians were an inferior people. That would be very odd, since I am one. Their cultures and ways of life were very slow in adapting to change.

Oh, yeah. That's what I was getting at. Many of those cultures exist today. Rather than embracing a solid work ethic and working to better themselves, they choose (as do some other races I could mention) to beat their chests and scream about how they've been wronged. I am ashamed of many of the people I share DNA with, both racially, and in a family sense. Sure, the American government broke treaty and treated some of the peoples poorly time after time.
The proper response to this would be to better themselves and become an econmoic power unto themselves. Look at the folly of "the white man" in CA, beating feet at a frantic pace to pour money into the coffers of the native man's casinos. This should be embraced by the tribes as a means to gain political power, and for some, this is happening.

Anyhow, perhaps we should stop this thread drift, and return to the posters intent?

 

[joab]

double

 

[joab]

Not at all. We didn't enslave them. We merely used what was already happening to serve as cheap labor

I see so it's a word game that is the basis of the discussion here. Those people weren't enslaved they were just working cheap. And by the way

Enslave
To reduce to slavery; to make a slave of; to subject to a dominant influence.

But the mere fact that we bought them from their own people makes it alright.
I get better excuses from my 14 year old. But I did know an old Klucker that tried to pass that same logic off once

That would be very odd, since I am one.

That would be odd, except

I am ashamed of many of the people I share DNA with, both racially, and in a family sense

OK I'm done now,
I'll let you get the last word in because I know how important that is to you two.

 

[gc70]

we're just not buying the hype anymore.

<sarcasm on>
So true. Everyone knows that behind every celebrated white man, there was an unrecognized minority who was the real hero.
</sarcasm off>

 

[fjolnirsson]

OK I'm done now,
I'll let you get the last word in because I know how important that is to you two.

Well, I could care less about the last word. It's obvious you and I aren't seeing eye to eye on this, or indeed, even understanding one another correctly. So I guess we'll agree to disagree, and allow the thread to go back to it's topic. Thanks for the lively discussion, though.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread....

 

[Selfdfenz]

RE: The Libs and CP forming...

into one larger party which compromises on certain small points where they differ.

Define small points. I might be interested....depending.....

S-
(part of the resident THR CP nano minority)

 

[GRB]

Before the thread gets closed, let me get back to the original poster's concern.

I grew up believing in patriotism (but not blind allegiance) and that giving your life for our country as our revolutionary war heroes did was a great honor.

I was always brought up to believe that giving your service to your country was a good thing, although with the VN thing in there in my teens, there was some doubt thrown in. Yet I managed to grow to adulthood believing in my country, and that to live free and to live under the flag of freedom was not free. Your country is worth fighting for, it is worth serving and if need be it actually is worth dying for. I have never been in the military, yet I have served my country for the past 26 years and have come close to being killed for her once or a few times now. I am not bragging so please do not construe it as such. What I am trying to point out is that I am a run of the mill kind of guy, there are lots of us out here, who realize the necessity of protecting the USA and her constitution.

I think a lot of people still grow up with those same ideals. I also think a lot of people do not see it around them, maybe because they are blinded by all of the media hype. It is too bad that you do not see it because it really is all around you, you just have to look into the right directions.

I'm not certain there are exceptional people around today. Not in the numbers required to make meaningful change.

Let me point out some examples (I am only aware of a few actual numbers, the others you can guess at) of just regular folks who are out there that do make a difference. At the time of 9/11 there were about 40 Federal Air Marshals. Within about one month that number had grown to, let me just say many hundreds (I do not think I am at liberty to talk numbers but I do know it). The people who became air marshals immediately after 9/11 were regular folks. Sure they were already federal LEOs, but just regular guys and gals. Where did they come from, all branches of federal service from the IRS to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. They wanted to do something of an immediate nature to help; so they volunteered. Did they make a difference? Who can tell if they prevented another disaster They sure did help the morale of passengers and flight crews. Are they John Wayne enough for you?

Look also to our military. Do those people who certainly must number in the tens if not hundreds of thousands make a difference, are they enough? They are all volunteers - there is no draft. People still enlist on a daily basis knowing full well where they will likely be sent. They have seen the dead, guys missing, the gals missing legs, yet they volunteer. There is no draft yet, so there must be enough of them. Aren't they John Wayne enough for you?

How about the civilian patrol that recently made headlines in Arizona. Regular folks most of them. Sick and tired of the Swiss cheese border we have. Did they make a difference? Were they John Wayne enough for you?

The problem with worrying about who is or is not a John Wayne or Andy Griffith kind of a good guy is that you are looking for a make believe hero. John Wayne and Andy Griffith were actors, and what you saw of them was them playing good guys. Anyone can play a good guy or bad guy. Hollywood is Hollywood, It is a lot of bunk. History is much the same depending on who is telling it. One man’s hero is another man’s devil. The same goes for the real world today, your view depends a lot upon what you get to see and hear and most of that is controlled by a liberal media supporting its own agenda. When you look at what really happens out there each and every day, you will see there are lots of potential American heroes and lots of true American patriots. Certainly enough to make the difference that makes America a great nation.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[The Freeholder]

Much good has been said here, and I'm not rehashing it (I hope).

CT, welcome to the growing United States Empire. Much as I hate to say it, this is nothing new, and has happened before, historically speaking. Greece, Rome and other great civilizations have trod this path, depressing as it is to many of us.

However, the change is not inevitable. Just because it has happened before does not mean it can't be stopped and the Republic returned to us. It's unlikely, in my opinion, but it could happen. My problem is that all the scenarios I see that could do it are going to be quite unpleasant for the majority of the citizenry.

IMHO, the best thing to do is teach your children (or grandchildren) the art of critical thinking, work for the restoration of the Republic, and prepare for the worst.

 

[frenchwrench]

Just doing what needed to be done...

That is the most remembered quote I heard all my life from my father,mother,and their 3 brothers on both sides of the family.At the time of WWII,most of our country had been under fed, under paid, and under employed for over a decade. None of my family thought they were heros,they thought those who did not return were. We still have the ideals deep down that they had. It's just buried under to much soft living to be seen easily. I feel honored to know several patriots who are doing the right thing in service of our country.Bless 'em all.

 

[Nehemiah Scudder]

So should our standard of living be reduced intentionally, or should people just opt-out of a consumer lifestyle?

 

[Gung-Ho]

Quote:
These wre the same legends and heroes that systematically exterminated an entire culture and enslaved another and built their country on the backs of people who were not allowed to reap the benefits. The movies showed all that was good and none of the bad.

America is now as it has always been

we're just not buying the hype anymore.

Now that's humorous. Unsupportable leftist fantasy, but humorous nonetheless.

Hey 2nd Admend....Thank you for saving me the time of saying pretty much the same thing. Good post.

 

[GunGoBoom]

Joab, you are right, and 2nd Amendment is completely incorrect...he said

and killed at least as good as they got in return.

Say what? The Spaniards and English/Americans slaughtered native peoples by the hundreds of thousands (particularly Spaniards). The native people couldn't even come close to giving back a fraction of what they had got, as they were vastly undergunned (in technology), and unorganized in thier resistance to the attempted genocide and relocation efforts. A blatant mis-statement there, ruining 2As credibility on everything else on this subject, I'm afraid.

 

[2nd Amendment]

Well that's desperate. The Amerinds died by the hundreds of thousands from plagues, not direct attack. But I suppose if you're desperate to cling to a certain belief structure...

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Maybe I'm just a natural optimist, but I think the USA is, and will continue to be the greatest place on earth. There will be setbacks from time to time, but those strengthen us.

I'm with MHD. Take a look at many of our young folks in Iraq, Afghanistan and around the world.

Our EXTREMELY liberal newspaper here in Minneapolis recently did a set of "what if you were drafted?" interviews with 16-18 year-olds. While there were, of course, a lot of "I'd get a college deferrment"..."I'd run to Canada" answers, many said they would join the fight. Furthermore, many said they PLANNED to join the fight -- either by joining military Service or by choosing a profession that supports the security of the US.

While military service is important and commendable, it's the guy worrying about the minivan starting who keeps the country going.

I think the greatest strength of the USA is that this country is financially and economically strong DESPITE having to field a strong worldwide military.