Please explain an "Appleseed" to a non-American

[joe_kidd]

G'day from Downunder, mates!

I've been reading a lot about these "Appleseed shoots" - can someone please explain these to me? As in, what is the format of the shoot? Are they an individual or team-based experience? How is it scored? What type of firearms are used?

Cheers.

 

[chris in va]

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

Briefly, here's how it works. You bring a rifle with extra magazines and a sling, preferably something in 22 caliber as ammo is expensive now. First couple hours are for sighting in on 25 yard targets. The rest of the weekend consists of standing, sitting and prone shooting with varying drills and target sizes.

In essence you shoot at little black or red squares all day long, maybe listen to someone talk about a 'militia' back in the 1700's. At the end you run a qualifying target and get scored on accuracy and completion.

It's not a team effort, just a bunch of people on a firing line trying to understand what the range officer is yelling at them 30 yards away. I gave up after a few hours and just shot the target with whatever was left in my magazine.

Lots of guys like to bring the heavy stuff...M1 Garand, M14, AR15, even AK's. The best rifle to use IMO is the Ruger 10/22 with TechSights and maybe a target grade barrel. Bolt actions should not be used in the program. Semiauto's with 4 10rd magazines are best.

 

[Zoogster]

Lots of guys like to bring the heavy stuff...M1 Garand, M14, AR15, even AK's. The best rifle to use IMO is the Ruger 10/22 with TechSights and maybe a target grade barrel.

Well I definately wouldn't call that the "heavy" stuff. I would call it standard battle rifles firing rounds just capable of the task at hand.

I don't know a lot about the event but here is the first paragraph at that website:

The Appleseed Program is designed to take you from being a simple rifle owner to being a true rifleman. All throughout American history, the rifleman has been defined as a marksman capable of hitting a man-sized target from 500 yards away — no ifs, ands or buts about it. This 500-yard range is traditionally known as "the rifleman's quarter-mile;" a rifleman can hit just about any target he can see.

The whole purpose of the education seems to be understanding of how to be a rifleman as it relates to hitting "man size targets" and what that skill has meant as it pertains to our nation's history and the 2nd Amendment, militias, and the military etc
So the education seems to be mainly about learning marksmanship, but with a subtle focus as how it applies to shooting other humans beings within the combat distances of a rifle.

Since you would never be engaging humans with a .22LR, especaily at hundreds of yards I don't think the event with such a rifle would leave one with the proficiency to put down a man anywhere within 500 yards.
So a .22 may be a cheap way to go enjoy the event and have a nice time with other shooters, but I would hardly call it ideal for what they are trying to teach.
Shooting an underpowered weapon is definately easier. But the focus appears to be on learning how to shoot not just accurately, but shooting accurately from a platform capable of the tasks which rifles have performed in history as it relates to independence: killing men in defense of liberty.
It is just phrased in a way that is more family oriented and politicly correct.

 

[BBroadside]

"Bolt actions should not be used in the program."

I'm glad you said that, but sad it's true.

Why is that so? I'm sad because I love my CZ 452, and I'm not particularly in love with any autoloading 22s, though I have definitely heard praise for the 10/22.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Take a look at THIS THREAD: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=280890 Lots of pictures.

And THIS POST: http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4245476&postcount=5

 

[chris in va]

So a .22 may be a cheap way to go enjoy the event and have a nice time with other shooters, but I would hardly call it ideal for what they are trying to teach

Actually, the instructors highly recommended the 10/22 for the class I was in. One of them even showed off his nice Ruger for us. We had guys with Garands but weren't having much luck hitting the little black square after throwing 400+ rounds downrange.

We only had two reach the fabled 'Rifleman' award, one with the 10/22 and the other an AR. The guy next to me with his tacticool $2000 AK somethingoruther couldn't even put it on paper, even with the ACOG.

I should have gone home after the first day, but we already paid for the hotel room.

Why is that so? I'm sad because I love my CZ 452,

I brought my CZ carbine as a backup. I dearly wanted to use it, but couldn't keep up with the RO barking commands. Up, down, sit, prone...surprised we didn't do jumping jacks too.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

I'm glad you said that [bolt actions not so good for Appleseed], but sad it's true.
Why is that so?

Many of the courses of fire are time-limited and tailored to semi-automatic firearms. They could be completed by someone who is very adept at cycling and reloading a bolt-action rifle, but most of us are not in that category. The average shooter would only complete about 1/2 to 2/3 of each course of fire with a bolt-action rifle.

 

[joe_kidd]

Hmm sounds interesting. I'm surprised the course is taylor-made for semi-autos though. I would have thought if you were in a militia against an invading force you'd be more likely to engage in geurilla warfare and pick off the enemy soldiers with a more accurate bolt-action, under cover, especially if out-numbered.

 

[Regolith]

Hmm sounds interesting. I'm surprised the course is taylor-made for semi-autos though. I would have thought if you were in a militia against an invading force you'd be more likely to engage in geurilla warfare and pick off the enemy soldiers with a more accurate bolt-action, under cover, especially if out-numbered.

True. When I first heard of the program, it sounded like it was designed to teach rifleman basics, particularly how to become a better shooter, which to me sounded like a bolt action would work just fine.

What this thread describes sounds more like boot camp. No thanks.

 

[hawkhavn]

G'day Joe,

Appleseeds teach two things: an appreciation for our history and the sacrifices made for future generations and rifle marksmanship. That's it. Through several short lessons students are exposed to the some of the details on what happened on April 19, 1775, the day of the battles at Lexington and Concord.

The rest of the time is spent on teaching and practicing rifle marksmanship skills. We teach how to shoot accurately from prone, sitting/kneeling and standing. It is all individual, you are working with yourself to improve your skills.

Students can shoot any rifle, but a magazine fed semi-auto does work best. Several folks used bolt guns last weekend and it takes a practiced hand to finish the timed portions of the schedule. Folks can use iron sights or scopes. .22s work fine for the 25m work, however the skills taught are applicable to all rifles at all ranges. I went from shooting a .22 at 25m to shooting a .308 M1A
at 500 yards and my scores are the same That is why we stress the basics.

The events are timed not to simulate combat but to bring out flaws in technique. Mag changes don't have to be smooth, finding and verifying NPOA, etc. if you have forever to get the job done.

We have people from kids to grandparents shoot the course. The most important thing to bring is a teachable attitude. We show you how to make the most of your skills and give you a solid base to go home and practice with.

hawkhavn
RWVA instructor

p.s. How we came by the Appleseed name? We have a folk hero in these parts known as Johnny Appleseed, real name was John Chapman. He wandered the frontier in the early 1800's planting apple orchards, not so that he would have enough to eat but so that those who came after him would. We volunteer to do the same thing, plant the seeds today so that the rifleman's skills are here tomorrow and so that we can appreciate the sacrifices that were made for our liberty.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I just attended a shoot. Loved it! Learned so much! The range officers were very good, clear and helpful.

several people used .22 and 8mm bolt guns and kept up fine. I used two different 10-22s and thought autoloading helpful for it let me keep the sight picture between shots.

It's the best deal in basic marksmanship training and a lot of fun. Photos later this week.

 

[WayneConrad]

How can you use a .22 to train to be a rifleman?

Appleseed is meant to bring you from a simple rifle owner to a rifleman, someone capable of hitting a man-signed target at a quarter mile. Zoogster properly noted that a .22 isn't any good for a rifleman's work--it can't hit out to a quarter mile. So what's the deal with bringing a .22 to an Appleseed?

Appleseed uses the U.S. army AQT (Advanced Qualification Targets) scaled down to 25 meter distance. That is, the 100 meter target is 1/4 size, the 100 meter target is 1/8 size, and so on. Most of the Appleseed training is shot at 25 meters using these scaled-down targets, allowing for use of .22 (and a lot less hiking to the target).

At 25 meters you miss out on doping the wind and sight adjustment. And with a .22 you will miss out on a lot of recoil. What you will learn, though, is sling usage, prone position, sitting position, offhand position, natural point of aim, sight alignment, sight position, breathing, trigger control, cadence--things that apply to any caliber at any range. That's on Saturday.

Then on Sunday, for those who brought high-power rifles, there's some shooting at long range using full scale targets, so that you can verify that your sights are correct and your skills "scale up."

It's a great way to keep ammo cost down and accelerate the training (it's a lot quicker to train at 25 meters than at 400).

 

[El Tejon]

Guys, he's from Australian. We have to tell him who "Appleseed" was: Johnny Appleseed=>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Appleseed

Plant riflemen across the land.

 

[Pilot]

I'm surprised the course is taylor-made for semi-autos though. I would have thought if you were in a militia against an invading force you'd be more likely to engage in geurilla warfare and pick off the enemy soldiers with a more accurate bolt-action, under cover, especially if out-numbered.

G'day! Our semi-autos are accurate too! Rifles like Ruger 10/22's, AR-15's, M1A's, Garands, etc are very accurate indeed. My modified 10/22 can easily do 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards. Or for the non-Americans 12.7MM at 45.72 meters.

 

[WayneConrad]

What accuracy does a rifleman need? Just 4 minutes. You don't need to be able to shoot the eye out of a gnat at 500 yards to do a rifleman's work.

Without a bench, you can learn to shoot to 4 minutes of accuracy. Just your rifle, your sling and you.

 

[highfive]

Plant riflemen across the land

that was funny.....

I was planning to go to one here in Texas but I couldn't. Sounds like it could be fun

 

[cracked butt]

.22S are ideal for short range training/practice at reduced targets- if you can't hit a reduced target at 25 yards with a .22, you certainly aren't going to hit it at normal range with a .308.

 

[22LongRifle]

I have to say that I had the same experiance as chris in va did.

22lr

 

[ken grant]

All the talk about Appleseeds being set up for semi-autos only is a bunch of false info. Semi's do make it easier but it can be done with bolt actions such as Springfields,Enfields and Mausers.
The course of fire is almost the same as has been done from the days WW1 with bolt rifles. The Military has used this 25 AQT for many years and it has been proven that it is the best way to start everyone of all backgrounds to learn BASIC MARKSMANSHIP.

 

[Soybomb]

22LongRifle, which event did you attend? It sounds like the experience varies greatly depending on what instructors you get and I've been thinking about going to one

 

[longrifleman]

I went to one last fall, but could only stay for the first day. We had quite a mix of rifles and the only ones I saw that were unable to complete the timed courses were using tube fed .22s and bolties loaded a single round at a time. Guys with stripper clips seemed to keep up. If the ammo wasn't rediculous, I wouldn't be afraid to shoot one with an Enfield. The ten round mag would be a benefit.

I was using an AR and didn't have any problem on the timed courses. I usually had plenty of time left over. My background is more hunting than bench shooting, so that may have some bearing on shooting speed.

As far as shooting the reduced size targets, I want to reinforce the benefits. Other than doping the wind and range estimation, every skill scales up.

I'm going to the Searsboro, IA Appleseed the 19th of April.

 

[cmidkiff]

Joe_Kidd: Appleseed talks a good deal about being an American... not that you wouldn't be welcome if you were to attend a shoot, but the program teaches a good deal of history along with the shooting. Stories of the opening day of our revolutionary war, and the people who took those first shots that eventually led to our freedom. As long as you don't mind hearing that type of thing, come and join us! I seriously doubt that Appleseed will ever make it to your home town, but if you're ever in the area, we'd love to have you!

For the few people who didn't feel that they got much out of the program, I am sorry... my experience, and that of my daughters, has been quite different.

For the ones that don't think 25 yard fire at reduced targets is worthwhile when learning how to shoot at longer range with a higher power rifle, try it Below is a printable PDF with scaled down targets for you to try. It's not the regular AQT, but it should give you a feel for what we are trying to do. Remember, there are no bench rests on the battlefield!

http://www.midkiff.us/Redcoat.pdf

 

[akodo]

I can understand how a semiauto would be much faster than a bolt gun, but would it really be that much work for the appleseed folks to divide the group into semiauto users and 'other' and run the times a bit longer for the 'other' catagory?

 

[WayneConrad]

A bolt gun is not the handicap some people are saying it is. Let other people think it is. Then when you shoot a good score, they will think you are a rifle God. Last weekend I shot a 238 out of 250 on the AQT with my CZ. And I'm far, far from expert at this. I've only been shooting for four years, and I'm completely self taught. I'm not saying that to brag. I'm saying that to show that it's possible for anyone to do it it with a bolt gun. Show up at an Appleseed and show 'em what you've got!

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

I think some people are missing the point. The semi-auto advocates are not saying that "You can't use a bolt-action rifle for Appleseed." What we are saying is that unless you are very well-practiced and adept at using your bolt-action rifle, you will probably not complete many of the courses of fire which can be very frustrating--especially to a beginning shooter--in what should be a fun learning experience

For a beginning course, such as Appleseed, it is much better to use a tool that you are most comfortable and proficient with to reduce the stress and disappointment of not completing courses of fire--whether it is due to skill level, technological or physical limitations, or equipment reliability. Once the basics of marksmanship are learned, they can be transferred to any platform, whether it be a lever .22, single-shot .50 caliber or AR-15.

If you can take ten well-aimed shots with a magazine change/stripper reload in one minute from the prone position with your bolt-action rifle, then by all means-use it! I'm sure that the doughboys in WWI could do this and more, but currently most Americans sadly are no longer this proficient. Appleseed is attempting to change that.

For Appleseed, use whatever YOU are most comfortable with. The goals are to A) have fun and B) learn something.