WayneConrad
Member
Mojo-jo-jo, Very well said!
Please explain an "Appleseed" to a non-American
- Thread starter joe_kidd
- Start date
- Status
I went to my first Appleseed shoot just last weekend.
It sure didn't feel like it was a boot camp and neither did my son.(15 yrs.)
My son (yeah, he's still 15 yrs. old) shot both days with a magazine fed .22 bolt action. He only missed finishing a couple of times. And when he missed finishing, accuracy would have still scored him high enough. If he had the accuracy.
What he learned last weekend took him a long ways towards having the accuracy to score higher. He will also improve on his time using the skills he learned last weekend.
I used a single shot bolt action .22 on the first day. I finished most of the drills on time. I finished each drill more than once on time if not on target. I have been practicing my tactical reload and I fully intend to qualify as rifleman with my old single shot at the next Appleseed.
On Sunday one of the instructors loaned me one of the Liberty Training Rifles. They are just a modded 10/22. Pretty cool really. Using one of those (LTRs) I found that I shot all of the drills with plenty of time left. In the afternoon I traded the LTR for another shooters Mosin. The same principles apply, I was actually faster with my single shot .22, but that was just me....
I was able to be effective at 300 yds. with the Mosin (about the same as w/ the .22 .
If you have a bolt gun start practicing now on your reloads with dummy rounds and if you get even halfway smooth at it you will do fine.
Bolt actions rule!!!!!!!1
Wheeler44
It sure didn't feel like it was a boot camp and neither did my son.(15 yrs.)
My son (yeah, he's still 15 yrs. old) shot both days with a magazine fed .22 bolt action. He only missed finishing a couple of times. And when he missed finishing, accuracy would have still scored him high enough. If he had the accuracy.
What he learned last weekend took him a long ways towards having the accuracy to score higher. He will also improve on his time using the skills he learned last weekend.
I used a single shot bolt action .22 on the first day. I finished most of the drills on time. I finished each drill more than once on time if not on target. I have been practicing my tactical reload and I fully intend to qualify as rifleman with my old single shot at the next Appleseed.
On Sunday one of the instructors loaned me one of the Liberty Training Rifles. They are just a modded 10/22. Pretty cool really. Using one of those (LTRs) I found that I shot all of the drills with plenty of time left. In the afternoon I traded the LTR for another shooters Mosin. The same principles apply, I was actually faster with my single shot .22, but that was just me....
I was able to be effective at 300 yds. with the Mosin (about the same as w/ the .22 .
If you have a bolt gun start practicing now on your reloads with dummy rounds and if you get even halfway smooth at it you will do fine.
Bolt actions rule!!!!!!!1
Wheeler44
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
The Appleseeds speak to the essence of the second amendment:
That the people shall have at their disposal the skills and equipment necessary for at least minimal military credibility.
Fortunately, being America, the equipment is widely available.
The Appleseeds recognized that the skill to wield it proficiently wasn't as widespread, nor was there a "compact" source of that skill, and sought to correct that shortcoming.
It is my opinion, which I can defend in detail, that for general military purposes, the minimum militarily credible armament is a high capacity magazine fed autoloading rifle in a common military caliber or (ballistic equivalent) capable of 2-4 moa accuracy.
(Given that "select fire" is the worldwide military standard, I am uncertain if even this is sufficient...)
That is also forms the floor for my litmus test for the second amendment: if rifles meeting that bare minimum of militarily credibility are no longer freely available to American citizens in good standing, then we have entered an era in which it would be reasonable to assert that the Constitution has been abrogated.
That the people shall have at their disposal the skills and equipment necessary for at least minimal military credibility.
Fortunately, being America, the equipment is widely available.
The Appleseeds recognized that the skill to wield it proficiently wasn't as widespread, nor was there a "compact" source of that skill, and sought to correct that shortcoming.
It is my opinion, which I can defend in detail, that for general military purposes, the minimum militarily credible armament is a high capacity magazine fed autoloading rifle in a common military caliber or (ballistic equivalent) capable of 2-4 moa accuracy.
(Given that "select fire" is the worldwide military standard, I am uncertain if even this is sufficient...)
That is also forms the floor for my litmus test for the second amendment: if rifles meeting that bare minimum of militarily credibility are no longer freely available to American citizens in good standing, then we have entered an era in which it would be reasonable to assert that the Constitution has been abrogated.
This thread depresses me. I had thought that the idea of Appleseeds was battle rifle of nearly any vintage. If the weapon of choice is a 10/22, that makes it a whole lot less interesting to me. Not knocking it, but a 22 just doesn't seem to be much of a battle rifle to me.
I guess I won't be heading out to one with my K-31 after all.
Mike
I guess I won't be heading out to one with my K-31 after all.
Mike
Wheeler44,
Welcome to the Club! Be careful though they can be addicting. Great people, good instruction and rifles it seldom gets better. Start thinking about making the grade and then becoming an instructor. Our shoot boss in TN this last weekend hadn't even shot a rifle 2 years ago. Pay attention, learn and then learn to pass it on. It is great fun to be involved with a successful winning program, with 100 shoots this year and 200 next I'd call it successful.
Geek,
If you haven't made it to one yet, let me know what I can do to get you to one. You can see above what Oleg had to say about last weekend.
hawkhavn
RWVA Instructor
Welcome to the Club! Be careful though they can be addicting. Great people, good instruction and rifles it seldom gets better. Start thinking about making the grade and then becoming an instructor. Our shoot boss in TN this last weekend hadn't even shot a rifle 2 years ago. Pay attention, learn and then learn to pass it on. It is great fun to be involved with a successful winning program, with 100 shoots this year and 200 next I'd call it successful.
Geek,
If you haven't made it to one yet, let me know what I can do to get you to one. You can see above what Oleg had to say about last weekend.
hawkhavn
RWVA Instructor
Ed Ames
Member
Use whatever you want.... K-31 turn you on? Go for it.
Appleseeds teach how to SHOOT a battle rifle. Which, coincidentally, is exactly the same as how you shoot a 10/22. By a convenient accident of history virtually all rifles are operated, at their core, in essentially the same way. Makes training much cheaper.
Want to use a FAL instead? Go for it. You might spend more on ammo than someone with a 10/22 spends on the gun and ammo but that's just a detail.
AR-15 would be a decent choice.
Appleseeds teach how to SHOOT a battle rifle. Which, coincidentally, is exactly the same as how you shoot a 10/22. By a convenient accident of history virtually all rifles are operated, at their core, in essentially the same way. Makes training much cheaper.
Want to use a FAL instead? Go for it. You might spend more on ammo than someone with a 10/22 spends on the gun and ammo but that's just a detail.
AR-15 would be a decent choice.
So
I thought at first it was just a bunch of guys wanting to be minutemen at $70 a crack and drawn in by a group that profits on that idea. Guy I know who is an expert in a particular weapons history, who is also in the real military, and just back from Iraq for the third time, thinks this is one of those groups that ultimately wants to run around in the woods on weekends and pretend it is saving America by doing so.
I don't know what this is actually, but I think my friend may be closer to right than I thought to start with.
Does the Highroad promote this... judging by the many posts promotiing events?
I thought at first it was just a bunch of guys wanting to be minutemen at $70 a crack and drawn in by a group that profits on that idea. Guy I know who is an expert in a particular weapons history, who is also in the real military, and just back from Iraq for the third time, thinks this is one of those groups that ultimately wants to run around in the woods on weekends and pretend it is saving America by doing so.
I don't know what this is actually, but I think my friend may be closer to right than I thought to start with.
Does the Highroad promote this... judging by the many posts promotiing events?
Mojo-jo-jo
Member
RPCVYemen -
Most people at Appleseed don't use a 10/22. They bring what they have: SKS, AK47, AR15, M1A, Garand, CETME clone, FAL, Remington 750, Savage 110, Marlin 60, Lee-Enfield, K31, Mauser K98k, Mosin-Nagant, and yes, Ruger 10/22's.
You are likely to see any or all of these at an Appleseed shoot. You don't need to buy or bring any particular rifle for Appleseed. There are no class divisions, and it's not competitive amongst shooters: You only compete with yourself.
It just turns out that 10/22's are a popular choice for these reasons:
1. Ammo is cheap. $10 will give you enough ammo for the weekend, compared to $250 for 7.5 Swiss or $300 for .308.
2. "Tech" brand peep sights are available for it. The course is centered around a "peep" style sight because this is the style used on U.S. military rifles. HOWEVER, you can shoot the course with ANY type of sight, or even a scope if you so desire.
3. The shooting at an Appleseed is done at 25 meters--The targets are scaled to simulate longer distances. The principles learned at 25 meters apply to any distance out to 400 yards or more. .22 is more than adequate for that distance. It's also more practical that people don't have to walk 200 yards to check targets. If that was the case, there would be more walking going on than shooting.
4. It's a shoulder saver. If anybody wants to shoot ~450 rounds of 7.62x54R out of an M44 over the course of two consecutive days, that is their prerogative. However, most of us are not up to that kind of punishment!
I brought an SKS to my first Appleseed--It's what I had. In hindsight, I did see that it wasn't the best choice, mainly due to fit. It just wasn't "the rifle for me." Later, I bought an AR15, and that works well. I don't own a 10/22, and might or might not bring it if I had one.
Bring what you have. Bring what you like. Just come out, GET SHOOTING AND HAVE FUN!!! THIS is the purpose of Appleseed!
Most people at Appleseed don't use a 10/22. They bring what they have: SKS, AK47, AR15, M1A, Garand, CETME clone, FAL, Remington 750, Savage 110, Marlin 60, Lee-Enfield, K31, Mauser K98k, Mosin-Nagant, and yes, Ruger 10/22's.
You are likely to see any or all of these at an Appleseed shoot. You don't need to buy or bring any particular rifle for Appleseed. There are no class divisions, and it's not competitive amongst shooters: You only compete with yourself.
It just turns out that 10/22's are a popular choice for these reasons:
1. Ammo is cheap. $10 will give you enough ammo for the weekend, compared to $250 for 7.5 Swiss or $300 for .308.
2. "Tech" brand peep sights are available for it. The course is centered around a "peep" style sight because this is the style used on U.S. military rifles. HOWEVER, you can shoot the course with ANY type of sight, or even a scope if you so desire.
3. The shooting at an Appleseed is done at 25 meters--The targets are scaled to simulate longer distances. The principles learned at 25 meters apply to any distance out to 400 yards or more. .22 is more than adequate for that distance. It's also more practical that people don't have to walk 200 yards to check targets. If that was the case, there would be more walking going on than shooting.
4. It's a shoulder saver. If anybody wants to shoot ~450 rounds of 7.62x54R out of an M44 over the course of two consecutive days, that is their prerogative. However, most of us are not up to that kind of punishment!
I brought an SKS to my first Appleseed--It's what I had. In hindsight, I did see that it wasn't the best choice, mainly due to fit. It just wasn't "the rifle for me." Later, I bought an AR15, and that works well. I don't own a 10/22, and might or might not bring it if I had one.
Bring what you have. Bring what you like. Just come out, GET SHOOTING AND HAVE FUN!!! THIS is the purpose of Appleseed!
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Neither one of you thought the group might be more than kooks or a scam? Perhaps I've gotten the wrong impression but I get the feeling that at its core its a bunch of people who feel that the 2nd amendment isn't worth the parchment its printed on if no one knows how to use a gun and recognize that shooting is sort of a dying skill and are trying to do something about it. I've got to say as a young guy in a rural area that grew up in a family without gun owners I've found it really really difficult to find much in the way of good shooting instruction.
WayneConrad
Member
Niner, At $70 for two days, I don't know how anyone is going to get rich doing this. If anyone does, fine. How can you complain at $70 for two days? Have you seen the prices people get for firearm training?
Your friend may be an expert in a particular weapons history, but he's got a distorted idea of what Appleseed is about. Has he read the website or talked to anyone who's been to one?
There is no running around in the woods. Appleseed is just square-range training, shooting paper targets at fixed ranges.
The "saving America" part is that Appleseed strongly encourages everyone who participates to not just shoot, but to vote, to write their representatives, to get involved, to do whatever it takes to keep liberty alive. You know, the same thing we do here on The High Road all the time.
Your friend may be an expert in a particular weapons history, but he's got a distorted idea of what Appleseed is about. Has he read the website or talked to anyone who's been to one?
There is no running around in the woods. Appleseed is just square-range training, shooting paper targets at fixed ranges.
The "saving America" part is that Appleseed strongly encourages everyone who participates to not just shoot, but to vote, to write their representatives, to get involved, to do whatever it takes to keep liberty alive. You know, the same thing we do here on The High Road all the time.
Mojo-jo-jo
Member
Niner,
The purpose of Appleseed is to bring back the nearly lost American tradition of the individual citizen rifleman--that tradition which was so important to gaining our independence from the English crown. Appleseed teaches basic marksmanship, with a healthy dose of American Revolutionary War history. The goal is simply to get people shooting, and hopefully shooting well.
Applessed is not a militia group. Appleseed does not teach infantry tactics or combat theory. There are no moving-and-shooting drills, no running or crawling in the woods, and no camo face paint. Only straight target range shooting from standing, sitting and prone. Range safety is a primary concern.
It is a family-friendly event and many participants bring their responsible teenage children. At my first Appleseed, a fifteen-year old boy qualified as Rifleman (by scored target). You could almost feel his (and his father's) pride.
Appleseed events are open to everyone. Find out when there is one in your area, and come out to see what it is. If you don't want to shoot, that's fine too, just stop by and see what is happening.
Bring your friend in the Army as well. Military personnel shoot free.
The purpose of Appleseed is to bring back the nearly lost American tradition of the individual citizen rifleman--that tradition which was so important to gaining our independence from the English crown. Appleseed teaches basic marksmanship, with a healthy dose of American Revolutionary War history. The goal is simply to get people shooting, and hopefully shooting well.
Applessed is not a militia group. Appleseed does not teach infantry tactics or combat theory. There are no moving-and-shooting drills, no running or crawling in the woods, and no camo face paint. Only straight target range shooting from standing, sitting and prone. Range safety is a primary concern.
It is a family-friendly event and many participants bring their responsible teenage children. At my first Appleseed, a fifteen-year old boy qualified as Rifleman (by scored target). You could almost feel his (and his father's) pride.
Appleseed events are open to everyone. Find out when there is one in your area, and come out to see what it is. If you don't want to shoot, that's fine too, just stop by and see what is happening.
Bring your friend in the Army as well. Military personnel shoot free.
Heard of CMP?
There are some real civilian marksmanship programs around. Guess Appleseed has nothing to do with the CMP. Here is a link that tells you about one that is not a part of Appleseed.
http://www.milsurpafterhours.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4776
There are some real civilian marksmanship programs around. Guess Appleseed has nothing to do with the CMP. Here is a link that tells you about one that is not a part of Appleseed.
http://www.milsurpafterhours.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4776
BBroadside
Member
cmidkiff, you have added to my interest in the program. Talking about the uniquely American aspects of the program makes me think the British should do the same kind of thing, only instead of Minutemen they could talk about the Local Defense Volunteers and Home Guard of the Second World War. Those men were often armed with 12-bore shotguns - usually not repeaters - or older American-made Enfields, if they had guns at all. Unlike the Minutemen, they didn't eventually have to fight, but they were prepared to. Lots of people fought the Germans with substandard weapons, anyway.
AFAIK, bolt-action rifles are still legal in the UK. It would be great if there were enough interest to support such a thing, but I'm not sure. British political culture is something I don't claim to understand.
AFAIK, bolt-action rifles are still legal in the UK. It would be great if there were enough interest to support such a thing, but I'm not sure. British political culture is something I don't claim to understand.
Mojo-jo-jo
Member
Actually, the Revolutionary War Veterans Association (who runs Appleseed) is a CMP affiliated club. If you follow the previous link, it will take you to the CMP club tracker page for RWVA, which contains a link to the Appleseed website.
Appleseed events are NOT MATCHES. They are not competitive. Competitive events tend to be intimidating to new shooters, and Appleseed is an alternative to that.
BTW, Participation in an Appleseed event qualifies for the marksmanship activity requirement for CMP Garand/Carbine purchase. Membership in RWVA qualifies for the CMP required affiliate club membership.
Appleseed events are NOT MATCHES. They are not competitive. Competitive events tend to be intimidating to new shooters, and Appleseed is an alternative to that.
BTW, Participation in an Appleseed event qualifies for the marksmanship activity requirement for CMP Garand/Carbine purchase. Membership in RWVA qualifies for the CMP required affiliate club membership.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
I used 10-22 for two reasons:
1.I couldn't bring my own rifle and had to borrow
2.I am a poor shot and saw no use in wasting expensive centerfire ammo
Eventually, I'll move up to centerfire. For now, it makes as little sense as using an 8x10" view camera for a beginning photo class.
$70 covers range access, targets and gas for the volunteer instructors. It's the best deal in rifle training I've seen yet -- and I've taken a few courses.
1.I couldn't bring my own rifle and had to borrow
2.I am a poor shot and saw no use in wasting expensive centerfire ammo
Eventually, I'll move up to centerfire. For now, it makes as little sense as using an 8x10" view camera for a beginning photo class.
$70 covers range access, targets and gas for the volunteer instructors. It's the best deal in rifle training I've seen yet -- and I've taken a few courses.
No offense Niner
No offense Niner, but I feel someone has given you the wrong impression of Appleseed. There is no talk of crawling around the woods with face paint.
There is just instruction.........Instruction on what happened on April 19, 1775 and how that shaped our nation....and instruction on good, basic, marksmanship.
You owe it to yourself to check it out....minors and military shoot free..
Wheeler44
No offense Niner, but I feel someone has given you the wrong impression of Appleseed. There is no talk of crawling around the woods with face paint.
There is just instruction.........Instruction on what happened on April 19, 1775 and how that shaped our nation....and instruction on good, basic, marksmanship.
You owe it to yourself to check it out....minors and military shoot free..
Wheeler44
sctman800
Member
Two friends and I have signed up for Sunday only at Freedom Indiana 4-20-08, just couldn't make it for Saturday. I will probably take my K-31 or Mosin and in case I cant make fast enough reloads will probably bring my AK for back up. I think it will be great. Jim.
plexreticle
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,240
If you don't think 22LR practice translates to center fire shooting then you're doing it wrong.
Sctman800,
Sorry you won't be able to make Saturday, I'll be one of the instructors both days. Also, we'll be getting a late start Sunday due to the proximity of local churches. However, we'll spend that quiet time getting you up to speed from what you missed on Saturday. How's that for a deal?
Niner,
Please thank your friend for his service. I have friends, co-workers and neighbors over there too and I think about them every day. I checked out the Garand clinic you held, looks like a nice time. How about you triple the number of students and do it across the country 100 times this year? Arrange the qualified instructors, design a course of fire and instruction, pay the insurance and get some publicity. Or you could talk to the folks who run the range and we'll come down and put on two full days of safe, relevant instruction, clean up and leave and repeat in a few months as clubs are constantly asking how soon can we return. How about it, friend?
hawkhavn
Sorry you won't be able to make Saturday, I'll be one of the instructors both days. Also, we'll be getting a late start Sunday due to the proximity of local churches. However, we'll spend that quiet time getting you up to speed from what you missed on Saturday. How's that for a deal?
Niner,
Please thank your friend for his service. I have friends, co-workers and neighbors over there too and I think about them every day. I checked out the Garand clinic you held, looks like a nice time. How about you triple the number of students and do it across the country 100 times this year? Arrange the qualified instructors, design a course of fire and instruction, pay the insurance and get some publicity. Or you could talk to the folks who run the range and we'll come down and put on two full days of safe, relevant instruction, clean up and leave and repeat in a few months as clubs are constantly asking how soon can we return. How about it, friend?
hawkhavn
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bill in IN
Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2005
- Messages
- 130
My two thoughts on the subject-
1. The guy who wrote the book "The Art of the Rifle", Col. Cooper, would probably disparage the emphasis on time as spray and pray.
2. As this is purportedly connected with the Revolutionary War and those riflemen I find it a little confusing as the riflemen gave up speed (the musket being the high rate of fire armament of the time) for accuracy, a tactic that obviously worked. To take a modern day scenario and put the emphasis elsewhere might not be wise as when dealing with most civilians the ammunition supply is not infinite, making every shot count might be the better goal.
1. The guy who wrote the book "The Art of the Rifle", Col. Cooper, would probably disparage the emphasis on time as spray and pray.
2. As this is purportedly connected with the Revolutionary War and those riflemen I find it a little confusing as the riflemen gave up speed (the musket being the high rate of fire armament of the time) for accuracy, a tactic that obviously worked. To take a modern day scenario and put the emphasis elsewhere might not be wise as when dealing with most civilians the ammunition supply is not infinite, making every shot count might be the better goal.
WayneConrad
Member
Bill in IN, There's no spray and pray in Appleseed. The targets are timed, but they are also scored. To make the coveted rifleman score, your timed shots must mostly be bullseyes, and your misses close. There's no giving accuracy for speed. The requirement is for speed with accuracy. I've got the Art of the Rifle. Great book. I think Col. Cooper would approve of what Appleseed is teaching.
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longrifleman
Member
You have to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run a marathon.
Appleseed is an excellent place to get started for newer shooters. If you are already shooting Highpower or some such maybe you should check out becoming an instructor.
I've been shooting for years, but mostly with scopes and the best rest I could find. I want to improve my skills with iron sights and field positions. Appleseed is designed around exactly that skill set.
There is definately a political aspect to the concept. I think it is the exact original intent of the Second Amendment that is being promoted. There is no question that that makes some people in the shooting community nervous.
Appleseed is an excellent place to get started for newer shooters. If you are already shooting Highpower or some such maybe you should check out becoming an instructor.
I've been shooting for years, but mostly with scopes and the best rest I could find. I want to improve my skills with iron sights and field positions. Appleseed is designed around exactly that skill set.
There is definately a political aspect to the concept. I think it is the exact original intent of the Second Amendment that is being promoted. There is no question that that makes some people in the shooting community nervous.
El Tejon
Member
bill in IN, Col. Cooper had timed events at API270. Cooper provided heavy emphasis on snap shots in his instruction as well.
My Appleseed Experience: What It Is and Is Not
I wrote up an AAR in the following thread:
Rifle Marksmanship Training: Appleseed 10-11NOV2007, Davilla, TX AAR
I give a general overview of what occurred and what I thought of it.
FWIW:
1. I am not a member of RWVA and not an Appleseed instructor.
2. I have been a firearms user all my life
3. I have had training in the past, courtesy of Uncle Sam
You are operating under a misconception. If you want to shoot your K31, bring your K31 and requisite accessories to shoot long strings of fire under time pressure in the various shooting positions.
I was torn between my K31 and my Swede M96/38. I eventually ran with the Swede for several reasons I can detail later, if you like.
Th reason that many reference a modded Ruger 10/22 is due to the nature of the shoot:
1. Most shooting done at 25m at reduced-size targets to maximize trigger-time, not hoof-time.
2. Sucking up centerfire recoil and muzzle blast can be debilitating to those not accustomed to such over several hours' time.
3. Cost of a modded Ruger 10/22 is less than the centerfire ammo expended at an Appleseed over the weekend.
I bow to no man in my appreciation of battle rifles and I have material evidence to back my words up. Despite that, if you read my AAR (posted above) you will (perhaps) understand why the Ruger 10/22 is likely more appropriate for the majority of shooters at an Appleseed.
"It ain't what you don't know that is most harmful, it is what you know that ain't so..."
Your buddy, despite his service, speaks in ignorance on this topic. I suggest you seek out better data before drawing your conclusions.
I would urge to your read my AAR on THR...no, read the one I posted at the RWVA website that is commented upon by RWVA members and Appleseed instructors. Then click the links I have provided at the bottom of that AAR.
1. I own that particular work of Cooper's and hold it in high regard. I also have some others of his. The next time you crack them open, do pay attention to what he writes on practical marksmanship and the factor of time.
IOW, what Appleseeds teach is in close accord to what Cooper wrote and practiced. The basic are the basics, no matter who is the instructor.
2. This is a misunderstanding of what is taught at an Appleseed. Practical marksmanship is not a bench rest competition. Time is very much a factor and an added stressor. Part of the training is learning how to deal with time pressure and still make hits.
FWIW, almost every marksmanship qualification I had in Uncle Sam's service had a time component.
LINKS:
Rifle Marksmanship Training: Appleseed 10-11NOV2007, Davilla, TX AAR
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=315994&highlight
AAR I did at RWVA forum, including responses
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1247.0
Ruger 10/22 "Liberty Training Rifle"
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.0
joe_kidd said:
I wrote up an AAR in the following thread:
Rifle Marksmanship Training: Appleseed 10-11NOV2007, Davilla, TX AAR
I give a general overview of what occurred and what I thought of it.
FWIW:
1. I am not a member of RWVA and not an Appleseed instructor.
2. I have been a firearms user all my life
3. I have had training in the past, courtesy of Uncle Sam
RPCVYemen said:
You are operating under a misconception. If you want to shoot your K31, bring your K31 and requisite accessories to shoot long strings of fire under time pressure in the various shooting positions.
I was torn between my K31 and my Swede M96/38. I eventually ran with the Swede for several reasons I can detail later, if you like.
Th reason that many reference a modded Ruger 10/22 is due to the nature of the shoot:
1. Most shooting done at 25m at reduced-size targets to maximize trigger-time, not hoof-time.
2. Sucking up centerfire recoil and muzzle blast can be debilitating to those not accustomed to such over several hours' time.
3. Cost of a modded Ruger 10/22 is less than the centerfire ammo expended at an Appleseed over the weekend.
I bow to no man in my appreciation of battle rifles and I have material evidence to back my words up. Despite that, if you read my AAR (posted above) you will (perhaps) understand why the Ruger 10/22 is likely more appropriate for the majority of shooters at an Appleseed.
Niner said:
"It ain't what you don't know that is most harmful, it is what you know that ain't so..."
Your buddy, despite his service, speaks in ignorance on this topic. I suggest you seek out better data before drawing your conclusions.
I would urge to your read my AAR on THR...no, read the one I posted at the RWVA website that is commented upon by RWVA members and Appleseed instructors. Then click the links I have provided at the bottom of that AAR.
bill in IN said:
1. I own that particular work of Cooper's and hold it in high regard. I also have some others of his. The next time you crack them open, do pay attention to what he writes on practical marksmanship and the factor of time.
IOW, what Appleseeds teach is in close accord to what Cooper wrote and practiced. The basic are the basics, no matter who is the instructor.
2. This is a misunderstanding of what is taught at an Appleseed. Practical marksmanship is not a bench rest competition. Time is very much a factor and an added stressor. Part of the training is learning how to deal with time pressure and still make hits.
FWIW, almost every marksmanship qualification I had in Uncle Sam's service had a time component.
LINKS:
Rifle Marksmanship Training: Appleseed 10-11NOV2007, Davilla, TX AAR
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=315994&highlight
AAR I did at RWVA forum, including responses
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1247.0
Ruger 10/22 "Liberty Training Rifle"
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.0
- Status
