Which one for Appleseed ?

[7.62 Nato]

I will be shooting my first Appleseed Shoot in about a week. I've been reading up on it and have read many varying opinions but little explaination why. I know semi-autos with detachable magazines are pretty much the norm. But what about the rest ?

Iron sights
Scope

Rimfire
Centerfire

Rimfire Conversion
Dedicated Rimfire

Please let me know why you choose that also.

Thanks

 

[Riss]

Unless you need it because of poor eyesight use iron sights. The program is designed around their use, but you will not be sent away for using a scope. Rimfire is cheaper and easier on the shoulder too. I used a Mossberg 44 US bolt action trainer, left handed and it was rough. Hard to run the right handed bolt, change mags, reload etc while slung up. I made it through and earned Rifleman status but it was not easy running the bolt. Get a military canvas sling. YOU WILL NEED ONE. Or get some extras and donate one to the cause as they have some for sale and they always sell out. A shooting coat is helpful if you have one. As is a shooting glove, or any leather glove that you can tighten the sling up on to save the skin on your hand. The program goes through the proper steps of setting up a shot, position style, like in highpower shooting so if you have any material on the positions now would be the time to go over them as a familiarity refresher.

 

[Kymasabe]

I did an Appleseed a couple of years ago. Did day one with my AK and day two with my 10/22. I'd recommend doing the shoot with a .22lr if you have one. Costs less to shoot, easier on the shoulder. There were guys at my class using SKS's and stripper clips but isn't as easy as a rifle with mags. There are some exercises where you'll be instructed to fire ten rounds but in a fire 2, drop mag, insert new mag, fire 8 more. Or fire 5 then five, that kinda thing. Hard to do without mags. You definately need a sling. Canvas military is best but you can use a leather sling or whatever if that's all you have. Sling use is integral to the instruction and once you learn it, you won't want to shoot without one. Bring a shooting mat of some kind. It could be something as simple as a moving blanket, an old sleeping bag, or a piece of carpet from Home Depot, don't need anything fancy. Two things are essential: 1, lots of water. 2, elbow and knee pads. After day one, my elbows were bleeding, ran to WalMart at night, got some soft kids knee pads and pulled them up my arms for elbow pads. Don't forget ear plugs of some kind.
Sights are prefered but they won't turn you away if you have a scope or red-dot. The idea is to make you a beter rifleman so you can teach others, they offer the class free to kids to attract new shooters to the sport. It's a very cool, easy-going, shoot-what-you-brung kinda atmosphere. There's no prize for the latest, fanciest, most expensive AR or anything like that. Some of the best shooters in my lane were using old M1 carbines, Garands, a few AR guys were really good, lots of .22lr shooters were having fun and there was one guy with an SKS with a tech-sight that was just shooting great that day.

 

[Riss]

Bring a gun and a friend. Bring a extra gun and an extra friend if your have one and extra ammo. Cleaning supplies and tools are good too. Someone will break down and its good to be able to help out. All shots at mine were from the 25 yard line, but the targets are small. A spotting scope would help to get sighted in, but you will be calling your hits and misses by the second day. A shooting mat is a must, Midway had theirs on sale half price, is now on back order www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=169107

 

[Al LaVodka]

Iron.
The rest doesn't matter.
You are learning the basics of challenging shooting a modern rifle in multi-positions but NOT from the bench!
Al

 

[minutemen1776]

As others have said, use irons if possible. Besides that, use something that uses detachable mags and is reliable and accurate. If you have a rimfire that fills the bill, that'll cost you less and be easier on you. You'll be firing lots of rounds in an Appleseed shoot, and heavy rifles or hard-kicking rifles will wear you down more than you might realize, particularly if you're not a seasoned shooter.

 

[7.62 Nato]

I have a variety of choices including milsurp, and commercial. The main ones I've narrowed it down to are Bushmaster rifle in 5.56 Nato, Bushmaster w/CMMG conversion for .22LR, 10/22 carbine, or .30 cal carbine (milsurp or commercial).

I would love to do this with my SA M1A but the ammo cost would HURT !

 

[Mikee Loxxer]

Get a Ruger 10/22, (4) 10 round magazines, a GI sling, and 500 rounds of quality 22LR.

 

[docsleepy]

What loxer said.
I just took a Saturday course in boiling heat (2 participants and one trainer conked out).

I could not finish many of their sets with a bolt. Everytime I reached up to run the bolt, my sight picture was GONE. My son with the Ruger was way way better off.

I prefer a scope, at 3-9x. A cheap one is fine. We worked at 25 yards. Zero the scope (or sights) at 25 yards. You need the sling. You need to be able to unclip the rear attachment if possible, and realtively easily. You need 2 magazines because they have you run drills with 2 magazaines (duh).

Take LOTS of COLLD water (we took a cooler). Take a shooting mat or something like it if possible. If it is hot and they don't have cover, take one of those gazebo type things and show up early and see if you can get it up; I was just DYING in the afternoon and a lot of my effort was wasted. The 22 bullets were so hot I burned my finger. We had to cover the rifles [but still be able to see the safety and bolt] or we could not touch them they were so hot. Any kind of cover would have made it a much better day for us. You are trying to achieve 4 MOA of accuracy, so try and be sure your rifle is better than that. I cannot really SEE a 1" square at 25 yards, try it and see if you can see it...if not....get the scope.

PRACTICE prone with your rifle before you go. I had the silly scope positioned incorrectly and way too high...making cheek weld almost impossible. I could have figured that out well in advance, bugt I was was short on time and preparing 3 rifles....my boo boo. We had a GREAT time and my kids actually THANKED me about 1 PM for bringing them....they were not quite so sure beforehand whether this would be fun or not. The people there were great, and the safety procedures were great, and the stories were very inspiring.

Have a great time!

p.S. we dropped back after church on the 2nd day and they had all spontaneously gone out and bought tent-like things and were having a much better time!

 

[Grey Morel]

Buy a 10/22 an put Techsights on it.

Feed it CCI MiniMags

The Appleseed staff will thank you, because they wont have to screw around trying to teach you to shoot with your oddball conversion gun or your crappy ammo. Your Wallet will thank you because its cheap.

I remember the guy who shot our Appleseed with a Stevens 22LR / .410 combination gun with non-adjustable partridge sights.... He spent most of his time reloading and re-establishing NPOA; he also managed to take up most of the instructors time so that the other 20 people on the line had to wait twice as long for help.

Dont be "That guy". For the love of all things sacred, just get a 10/22 with Techsights.

 

[StoneDog]

The two or three posts right above this one are spot-on.

I attended my 5th AS over the weekend, this time as an assistant instructor. I've seen everything from pump-action tube fed .22's to what they call Liberty Training Rifles (10/22 with Tech Sights and GI Sling) to bigger centerfires like AR's, M1/M1a and SKS.

Pump and lever-action make for difficult work in some of the drills they will run you through. Semi-auto is the way to go although we did have one shooter score an astounding 241/250 with a CZ rimfire bolt action.

To answer your questions:

Iron vs Scope: This is completely up to you. The training focuses on iron sights but does include scopes. Scopes can increase the tendency to want to "muscle" the rifle onto the target because the cross hairs and the target appear in the same focal plane. If your eyesight allows you to focus on the front sight (not the rear, not the target, the front sight) then you should be OK with irons. Otherwise go with a scope and make sure it is mounted so that you have proper eye relief and cheek weld in prone postion.

Rimfire vs Centerfire: Rimfire is easier on the wallet and the shoulder. I took my 10/22 with tech sights and sling to my first few then took my 20" HBAR to the rest. I did this because I wanted to save money while I got a handle on the basics. Once I shot "expert" the 10/22 I switched over to centerfire. Didn't take long to shoot expert with the bigger rifle and I saved some cash in the process. If you have the bank to burn through 400 or so rounds of centerfire then go for it, otherwise stick with rimfire. The skills are transferable.

Rimfire conversion vs dedicated: If you can get good groups (1-2 MOA) with a rimfire conversion then go for it. Some say as long as your rifle can shoot 4 MOA then you're good to go. That's not really true, at least not as I see it. You want your rifle reasonably accurate so that once you have the skills down you can see nice, tight little groups that aren't artificially big because of a barrel twist / ammo incompatibility.

 

[MikePaiN]

I'll be shooting a Marlin 795 .22lr with a set of Techsights

 

[StoneDog]

Excellent choice MikePaiN, just make sure you have the sling and/or 1 1/4" sliing swivels.

 

[philpost]

I just got back from one this past weekend. What everybody else said - .22, sling, irons if you have good ones, scope otherwise. It was a great experience. Be prepared to work hard, possibly get frustrated, and definately get sore. But it's worth it all the way.

 

[omega42]

MikePaiN, good choice on the Marlin. Keep an eye on your rear sight. Mine slipped off during the weekend I went. I was able to borrow a screwdriver and remount it but it was a surprise.

P.S. Before anyone asks, I did use blue thread lock when I first put the tech sights on.

 

[Voland]

stoooopid question

Can one use an AK at AS? I have a number of rifles but my go to is the AK. Its a fairly accurate Arsenal.

The only issue that I would have is that I am left handed and the sling attachments are right handed...

V.

 

[Kymasabe]

Voland, I attended an Appleseed with two AK's. First one was a 7.62 Saiga that I'd converted and had the long barrel. I was hoping the longer barrel would improve my accuracy. Not so much. Mid day I switched to my Armory USA Bulgarian AK. Beautiful gun, thicker than usual receiver, hammer forged barrel, excellent quality. Got close to getting my Rifleman patch but not quite. Hard to do with a stock AK. I believe a well-made AK has the potential but the stock sights hurt more than help. If you want to try with an AK, I'd recommend getting the dog-leg rail and rear peep sight from Texas Weapon Systems. http://texasweaponsystems.com/
Also, even for a righty, the left-side mounted front sling mount doesn't work as well as a sling swivel mounted under the gun so for a later shoot, I added a front rail and a clamp on sling swivel mount underneath. Day two I gave up on the AK platform, went to my mostly stock 10/22 and shot Rifleman in my first course of fire. Rest of the day was easy after that.
At a shoot, you're trying to hit a one-square-inch box at 25 yards. That's just bigger than a postage stamp, hard to even see the thing. Now try to hit it repeatedly with the crappy AK sights.
Do yourself a favor, leave the AK in the trunk as your back-up gun and bring something else.

 

[CraigC]

Rimfire, rimfire, rimfire. I'd hate to know I had to both pay for and tolerate shooting any centerfire 500 times in two days. At 25yds, I really see no point. Take an appropriate .22 semi-auto and focus on learning the techniques. For the cost of centerfire ammo, you can buy a Marlin 795 and outfit it with Tech Sights. You need to be familiar with your rifle and quick on your magazine changes. Practice before going to the shoot.

You need a good sling. Most use the canvas GI sling, I use a leather 1¼" national match 1907 sling and like it that way.

Can't stress enough the importance of some sort of shooting mat. I was glad I also brought a carpet remnant to place under my shooting mat. On concrete, I needed all the padding I could get.

Elbow pads are also essential. You'll be spending a lot of time in the prone position, well worth the expense. Couldn't find a need for knee pads but don't wear shorts.

Have at least two magazines, the more the merrier. Keep a loaded spare for your scored AQT's, you might need one if you have a malfunction.

I'd suggest taking the course with iron sights if you can see them. If you cannot, there is no dishonor in using a scope. You're only shooting against yourself. A good peep sight has it all over barrel mounted open sights. Don't forget your sight adjustment tools.

Take a cooler and plenty of water and drinks. Your shoot may or may not provide any lunches, you may need to pack one. Snacks are a good idea either way.

A folding chair is also a good idea.

If the shooting lanes are not covered you will need sunblock.

You may also need insect repellent. At my April shoot the ticks were really bad, I toted a few home.

Eye and ear protection, obviously.

I really don't know why folks insist on taking rifles like the AK. The course is patterned after the Army Qualification Test of the WWII era. This was originally shot with the M1 Garand. Yes, it's only 25yds but the targets are scaled to simulate shooting up to 400yds and you need to shoot 4MOA (unsupported) to make Rifleman. AK's and Mosin's are lucky to shoot 4MOA from the bench with their crude sights and most will be shooting them with cheap surplus ammo. Not exactly conducive to good accuracy. The iron sighted 10/22 I took shoots well under a half inch at 50yds and I was glad to have every bit of intrinsic accuracy I could get. Take it if it's all you've got, you will learn something but it's far from ideal.

 

[philpost]

I really wanted the AK to work, and it's a nice Arsenal SGL-20. But as CraigC pointed out, you're going to be trying to hit a target scaled to 400 yards, and that's just demanding more from an AK than it was intended for. I tried, bought the ammo, etc., and still went back to a .22 for the second day.

 

[Voland]

Right. The only reason I would want to use the AK is because it will probably be the only rifle that I will end up with for personal reasons. My thought is that if I am going to learn to shoot, I might as well use the tool that I am going to use... I will take it out this weekend and see how I do at 50 yards. If I can call my shots and keep it to 2" groups at 50, I will try it. If not, I will be rethinking my choice in the AK anyway.

I do have a 10/22 but its tricked out and does not have irons. I might end up with another one in its basic form...

Thanks guys!

V.

 

[philpost]

Voland, that was my line of thinking EXACTLY. In a SHTF situation, what else would I grab but my AK? And I wanted to get as familiar with it as possible. The hitch is that this is not CQB training, it's precise marksmanship training. While I initially felt like I was giving up on my AK, I was able to focus and internalize the lessons better with the .22.
Also, ergonomics is subjective, but I just felt able to perform better in this type of situation with a 10 22. And nailing headshots on 1/4 size targets at 100 yds was sweet (the equivalent of a man in prone at 400 yds). Honestly, the guys on my line who brought AR-15's were fine, but I would give serious thought to an AK. Also, your tricked out 10 22 would probably be O.K. - a few folks were using scopes.

 

[Risky buisness]

What better way to celebrate our countrys heritage of RIFLEMAN than going to an Appleseed? Were all about our heritage with a rifle, from the first shots of the revolution on April 19 1775 till the present we represent the fastest growing rifle instruction program in history, we are even instructing the millitary, that should tell you something.
Were having one in Kemmerer Wyo July 3-4, Instruction includes;
SAFETY, HISTORY, AND THE SKILL SET YOU NEED TO ACCURATLY FIRE ON AND HIT TARGETS TO 500 YDS.
www.appleseedinfo.org
Join us there.

 

[7.62 Nato]

I'm looking forward to the shoot this weekend. I plan on heading out to the range today to fire a "few" rounds in preparation.

 

[orcus]

One more, maybe non-obvious thing: even if you don't really like them, take a bore snake. My rifle (10/22) got fouled up when I took the class when I ran out of CCI Mini-mags and switched to Federal bulk ammo (more or less as accurate and reliable as CCI, but dirty). If I hadn't had the bore snake to clean out the debris a bit, I would have suffered through lots of malfs.

Stick with a .22LR for your first class. Focus on the fundamentals. I had only shot a rifle four or six times (sessions) prior to the class and I got my Rifleman patch. If I can do it, I would guess that most anybody could do it.

 

[7.62 Nato]

Thanks, I was at the range yesterday trying out my CMMG conversion for my AR. I'll be taking that with a 10/22 for backup.