Please help me identify this revolver

Buy or not to buy?

  • Go for it.

    Votes: 2 18.2%
  • Meh, poor state.

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Meh, too expensive.

    Votes: 8 72.7%

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .
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Snejdarek

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Joined
Jul 31, 2014
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735
Location
Czech Republic, EU
There is a revolver on sale. The seller claims it is 1888 firearm, which means it is over the counter no-registration gun. Apparently .38 SW. He gives no more info online, just phone number.

Could you please help me identify it? I would like to shoot it just now and then to make sure it is functional, I mostly want it due to its legal status. The price is set at €600.

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I have one almost identical and have fired it. It wouldn't be my first choice and I won't toss any of my S&W's, but it seems to be a solid gun and everything works, not always the case with those old guns. The design is basically a carryover from the pinfire, but that one is originally CF. They are not strong, but should be OK with .38 S&W factory loads IF and note the IF, the barrel unit screws onto the center pin as it should, with the bottom screw serving only to keep things lined up. Some of those guns were made with only the single front screw holding the barrel to the frame - avoid those for anything but wall hangers.

That said, the price seems more than a little high. Here, those guns are treated as novelties, and "no paper" antiques if made in or before 1898. 600 Euro is over $600 and IMHO that gun isn't worth more than $100 or so. Still, given the other considerations, the price might be reasonable in the Czech Republic.

Jim
 
Based on the condition, I think it is overpriced. I don't really think I'd shoot that gun either. If you choose to, I'd take it to a gunsmith first.

Looks Belgian.

Edit: Was the 38 S&W ever loaded with black powder? If so, without knowing if this gun was designed to fire black or smokeless powder would make me more hesitant. Maybe it was never loaded that way though.
 
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Howdy

Looks to me like a centerfire version of the Belgian Gaurdian model. As already stated, these were originally Pin Fire revolvers, this one is centerfire.

I would not shoot it. Old Open Top revolvers such as this tend to be weak. Without a top strap, over time the frame will bend and the barrel/cylinder gap will open up. I have an old Merwin Hulbert Open Top and the barrel/cylinder gap is huge and it is a much better constructed revolver than this one. Besides that, the only thing holding this one together is one screw holding the barrel to the frame. Very weak construction.

It looks to me like 600 Euros is about $670. Way more than I would pay for a piece like that. I don't think I would spend $100 on it.

Regarding 38 S&W and Black Powder, yes, S&W started making revolvers chambered for the 38 S&W in the 1870s. Cartridges were most definitely loaded with Black Powder then. I would most certainly not shoot the revolver in question with Smokeless rounds. But that's just me.

This S&W 38 Single Action 2nd Model was made in 1877. I only shoot it with Black Powder loads.

38SA2ndModel01_zps0c472607.jpg
 
Thank you very much guys. It seems you have spared me no only the € 600, but also possible severe palm damage.

I am sure someone will fork the money for the gun and I already feel sorry for him.

Thanks again and Godspeed!
 
It looks like one of the many Nagant type revolvers. Can you turn the butt swivel and open the action? It is similar to the Swiss Nagant.
 
Too much money for something I wouldn't feel all together safe shooting it. More suitable as a wall hanger or in a display case.
 
I would question the caliber of the pistol? I was surprised? I had a Swiss Nagant and it sold quickly for $400 bucks at a gun show? o_O
 
This gun looks almost exactly like a model 1870 Rast & Gasser, and I strongly suspect that's what it is, or a copy of some other model made by Gasser. It would not be at all surprising to find one of these in central Europe, but I would be amazed if it really is in .38 S&W. These were decent guns, and probably still shootable. Ian over at forgottenweapons.com has done several videos on these guns.
 
It looks like one of the many Nagant type revolvers. Can you turn the butt swivel and open the action? It is similar to the Swiss Nagant.
^^ Sure as heck looked like that to me, too, but I didn't know if they were made in .38 anything.
Respectfully I think you guys are mistaken. I'm certainly no expert, but I do like antique guns. Based on the intricate molding on the grip, the grip frame shape, and the overall appearance, I agree with Driftwood's comments. This looks like a decendant of the Lefaucheux revolvers, which were originally pinfires. Try Googling "Lefaucheux center fire revolver" and look at the images page. You'll see what I mean.

Original Lefaucheux revolvers sell for a pretty decent price if they are in good shape. However, many guns derived from those earlier designs were built, and it is hard to track which is which. On top of it, there were many factories in Europe, and several in Belgium that produced guns like this. Some were made in Germany, France, Spain..... It is definitely not a Nagant derived design. The lanyard loop is likely exactly that, a lanyard loop only.

Unfortunately the only proof mark I can see is on the barrel in the third picture. It looks like a capital T with a small symbol above it, maybe a crown. I can't find any corresponding info for that mark though, so it's possible it is not Belgian.
I would question the caliber of the pistol? I was surprised? I had a Swiss Nagant and it sold quickly for $400 bucks at a gun show? o_O

Me too! There were pinfires ranging from 5mm up to I think 12mm, and there were a variety of later center fire cartridges made in a variety of diameters. However, I really question that ANY of them were ever chambered for 38 S&W. I don't know that for sure though. If I had to guess, I bet the seller happened to stumble on the 38 S&W and found out it happened to fit the gun. If that's the case, that seems pretty unsafe. It's also possible a previous owner had a smith cut the cylinder to accept the more modern cartridge. The nickel platting's originality must be questioned on the cylinder.

I have no doubt that some of my assertions are not quite correct, as it is based on a lot of Google research I did a few years ago when I bought this.

Mine is obviously a pinfire though. I was told it is a 9mm, but I think it is closer to 8. It doesn't really matter to me though as it sits in a shadow box in my curio cabinet. A fellow THR member who was knowledgeable in the topic told me he thought it was built in the 1860's. I'll see if I can get him to chime in.

I do notice though that the loading gate is closer to the appearance of a Bodeo, or French Ordinance 1873. However, that design was used on a lot of revolvers.
 
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Well, guns like the 7.5mm Swiss Ordnance Revolver, and the 8mm Rast-Gasser are in another generation of European military revolvers; Even the earlier military revolvers, like the 1873 French revolver, are of far better quality than those revolvers. It is like comparing a Colt Single Action Army with a .32 rimfire "suicide special" - same era, but a lot of difference in quality.

The statement that "none were chambered for .38 S&W" is true, but a nearly identical 9mm CF cartridge was common in Europe and the well known British .380 cartridge used in Enfield and Webley revolvers in WWII is interchangeable with the .38 S&W. The Japanese 9mm revolver cartridge is almost (but not quite) the same as the US cartridge.

Still, it is pretty uncommon to find one of any power that is held together ONLY by a single screw; i think a check will show that the barrel screws onto the center rod and that the bottom screw serves only to keep it from rotating.
;
Jim
 
The statement that "none were chambered for .38 S&W" is true, but a nearly identical 9mm CF cartridge was common in Europe and the well known British .380 cartridge used in Enfield and Webley revolvers in WWII is interchangeable with the .38 S&W.

That may be, but I doubt that the subject revolver was originally chambered for those either. A 38 S&W may fit in the chambers it has now but I certainly wouldn't shoot them or any other smokeless load in it.
 
I have to go with 460 on this.

I have a Lefaucheux 9mm short pin fire that someone "blacksmith" converted to center fire and in very poor condition.

It will accept .38S&W cartridges and I was told those were used in it at some point in the past. This was a gun with a story.....likely a very much made up story, but a story none the less.

I think the grips are "after market". Someone chopped the pin-fire nose off the hammer then cut the hammer to accept a fining pin, looks like it might take a S&W firing pin of some sort though it is missing. A firing pin hole was wallowed into the frame a bit off center and at the wrong height for the falling firing pin.

I can not imagine ever firing this gun as it is. I have considered building up the hammer to produce a fake pin-fire hammer nose and filling the firing pin hole with a bit of threaded screw, but even 9mm pinfire blanks would not be something I would fire from it at this point

Sorry the picture does not show it well as it was meant to show the knife. DSC00271.JPG

-kBob
 
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