Please school me on .38 Special wadcutters consumables

[TacticalJanitor]

Today I ordered a Dillon Xl-750 with all the trimmings, thanks to a previous thread of mine. Many generous members provided a lot of helpful advice in an effort to get me where I'm trying to go as a new reloader.

I am now beginning to collect information about reloading for .38 Special in bulk and am wading through many Internet sites and minutia. Below is an explanation of where I THINK I am in the process.

Brass:
This is the easy part. I have been buying .38/148g HiTek WC (@800fps) from Choice Ammunition and saving the brass for a couple of months. When the time comes to order new brass, I plan to use Starline...but that should be quite a bit down the road. My local Range Officer has been collecting .38 brass for me at the range too. I'm sitting pretty good in this department (I think).

Primers:
This week I managed to find 400 SPP (CCI) and will start reloading with them. My understanding is that CCI primers are hard. I doubt this will be a problem. All my handguns have factory springs, but time will tell. However, I'd be interested what folks think is the best value when ordering in SPP in bulk.

Powder:
I plan to start with Bullseye because there is a lot of .38 info out there pertaining to it. I haven't found any Bullseye locally though, and suggestions of alternate brands would be welcome. For instance, I noticed that my LGS has Tightgroup in stock.

Projectiles:
My immediate need is to get some bullets ordered. This is really the intent of this post. I practice defensive shooting and MAY start tinkering with a little bullseye shooting in the near future. the HiTek WC I've been shooting do not lead the barrels of my J frames a whole lot...but I am spending more time scrubbing out lead than I'd like to.

Also, my M&P 340s are sensitive to either the HiTek coating or the lead. A lot of junk is being forced past the gas ring and I need to pull the cylinders apart every 200 rounds to clean them. It's bad enough that the cylinder resistance begins to cause a noticeable increase in trigger weight (which is already heavy). I've noticed that plated factory ammo seems to solve this issue. Uncoated lead makes the problem much, much worse (50 rounds will just about lock up any of the three guns).

So, rambling and explanations aside, here are my main questions:

• Wadcutter vs FMJ for practice ammo. Cheap is my goal...but not if it leads to constant barrel scrubbing.
• Hard cast vs "standard" lead. Any reason to choose one over the other for range ammo?
• DEWC vs HBWC. Which is better and why? If there is no practical difference for my application, then cheap wins.
• WC pre-lubed/coated or not? The HiTek has a strange smell when shooting outdoors. HiTek is marketed as being non-toxic. But, it smells strange and this makes me wonder.

I realize that this query is very broad and I don't expect anyone to walk me through the entire process of reloading or consumable selection. Just looking for hints, tips, and tricks.

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

 

[.38 Special]

Bullseye is king for target/competition loads, but as you have noted, it can be tough to find. Any fast powder can be a decent substitute - again assuming you are looking for a target load rather than a combat/hunting load. I have had good luck finding and using Accurate #2.

I don't like coated bullets much. My (unpopular) opinion is that they are simply a crutch, intended to replace proper bullet hardness/alloy, proper lube, and/or proper dimensions, both for the bullet and for the gun. All of that, though, becomes less important at target velocities.

I vastly prefer HBWC to DE. Double-enders are "just bullets" in that they don't really offer anything that garden variety SWC, RN, and others don't. A hollow base, though, tends to be very forgiving of various imperfections in the gun and usually will give best accuracy from any gun. I have been singing the praises of Hornady's 148 HBWC for many years, finding them exceptionally accurate and pleasant to handle - the dry lube works well and doesn't get all over everything, and if they don't shoot well from your gun, your gun probably can't shoot well.

All of that, by the way, applies only to target loads - say 800 FPS and under. For more general-purpose stuff, I'd recommend a slower powder and a flat base bullet.

 

[tominboise]

Millions of 38 special 148gr wadcutters have been fired without leading. You might consider the swaged bullets offered by Hornady and Speer. They have shot well in my 38 specials, along with many other brands of commercial cast 148gr wadcutters. I wouldn't go out of my way for coated or plated bullets to load target loads.

Primers are whatever you can get cheapest. Fast powders work exceptionally well. Red Dot, Clays, American Select, AA #2, WW231, etc, etc, etc. Whatever you can find in stock and at a decent price.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Bullseye is king for target/competition loads, but as you have noted, it can be tough to find. Any fast powder can be a decent substitute - again assuming you are looking for a target load rather than a combat/hunting load. I have had good luck finding and using Accurate #2.

You bring up a good point that I forgot to mention. I've decided to carry the Choice Ammunition WC for defense because they are local to me and readily available. My goal is to recreate that load for training. It would be awesome if I can wind up with the same recoil and POA/POI after some experimenting.

I think Accurate #2 is available in town. Thanks!

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Millions of 38 special 148gr wadcutters have been fired without leading. You might consider the swaged bullets offered by Hornady and Speer. They have shot well in my 38 specials, along with many other brands of commercial cast 148gr wadcutters. I wouldn't go out of my way for coated or plated bullets to load target loads.

Primers are whatever you can get cheapest. Fast powders work exceptionally well. Red Dot, Clays, American Select, AA #2, WW231, etc, etc, etc. Whatever you can find in stock and at a decent price.

My remedial understanding is that leading is a function of velocity...is that right? Slower is better (for a clean barrel)?

Oh, the Choice Ammo is hard-cast 148g HiTek. That may be significant...or not.

 

[.38 Special]

Leading is (or can be) a combination of several factors. Speed is one of them, although when everything is right, cast bullets can be driven in excess of 1500 FPS without issue.

Another factor is hardness. If the bullet is too soft it can definitely leave behind big streaks of lead, but the same is true if it is too hard - and overly-hard alloys are the rule with commercial bullets. What we want is hardness matched to the application: a very light target load can be pure lead or close to it, while a maximum load in a Magnum cartridge needs to be hard enough to stand up to it.

Perhaps most critical is dimensions, both of the gun and the bullet. Ideally, the gun tapers gently from bullet to muzzle. In the .38, for instance, ideal dimensions could look something like .358" bullet, .3575" throat, .357" leade, and .3565" muzzle. Things don't have to be quite so perfect as that, but the closer we get, the better. Certainly, something like .357" throats and .360" grooves isn't going to work very well and needs to be fixed, but most problems are not that extreme.

Lube also plays a role. Commercial manufacturers like to use hard lube because it stays put during shipping. Most of us are far better served by dead soft lube and bullets designed to hold a lot of it.

All of that, by the way, explains the existence of coated bullets. They allow the loader to pretty much forget about the details and just get to work, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you're willing to put up with their bad side, it's a very simple way of getting to the goal of matching the 800 FPS "Choice Ammunition" load.

 

[drband]

I have only a little experience with wadcutters. I do like the Acme Bullets button-nose HiTek coated wadcutters here: http://www.acmebullet.com/38Cal148-BNWC

No leading in my pistols, and easy cleanup with just a patch or two most of the time.

I like Red Dot/Promo for target loads, which is all I shoot out of .38’s

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Leading is (or can be) a combination of several factors. Speed is one of them, although when everything is right, cast bullets can be driven in excess of 1500 FPS without issue.

Another factor is hardness. If the bullet is too soft it can definitely leave behind big streaks of lead, but the same is true if it is too hard - and overly-hard alloys are the rule with commercial bullets. What we want is hardness matched to the application: a very light target load can be pure lead or close to it, while a maximum load in a Magnum cartridge needs to be hard enough to stand up to it.

Perhaps most critical is dimensions, both of the gun and the bullet. Ideally, the gun tapers gently from bullet to muzzle. In the .38, for instance, ideal dimensions could look something like .358" bullet, .3575" throat, .357" leade, and .3565" muzzle. Things don't have to be quite so perfect as that, but the closer we get, the better. Certainly, something like .357" throats and .360" grooves isn't going to work very well and needs to be fixed, but most problems are not that extreme.

Lube also plays a role. Commercial manufacturers like to use hard lube because it stays put during shipping. Most of us are far better served by dead soft lube and bullets designed to hold a lot of it.

All of that, by the way, explains the existence of coated bullets. They allow the loader to pretty much forget about the details and just get to work, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you're willing to put up with their bad side, it's a very simple way of getting to the goal of matching the 800 FPS "Choice Ammunition" load.

Thank you! This contains a lot of specifics I need to get started with my Googling. I can see that prices for WC bullets vary wildly.

It sounds like a good "not-too-technical" solution for me is to order 250 .358 coated bullets and give it a try.

 

[.38 Special]

I know I am rambling all over your thread, so I'll knock it off after this: in your shoes I would order a box of Hornady 148 HBWC and a pound of Accurate #2. Somewhere around 3.5 to 4.0 grains should get the bullets moving at about the same speed as the Choice stuff, and unless there is something wrong with your guns they will be accurate and free of significant leading. (I don't know what to make about your guns tying up with cast and coated bullets. I don't have a lot of experience with the 340 series, but none of my Smiths - including a 340 PD - cause any such troubles.)

Good luck, have fun, and keep us posted!

 

[blackd24]

I really like acme and Missouri bullet company for target 38. It’s hard to shoot a 148-158 grain bullet in 38 that’s jacketed. 38 is a low pressure round and most effective with lead.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

I know I am rambling all over your thread, so I'll knock it off after this: in your shoes I would order a box of Hornady 148 HBWC and a pound of Accurate #2. Somewhere around 3.5 to 4.0 grains should get the bullets moving at about the same speed as the Choice stuff, and unless there is something wrong with your guns they will be accurate and free of significant leading. (I don't know what to make about your guns tying up with cast and coated bullets. I don't have a lot of experience with the 340 series, but none of my Smiths - including a 340 PD - cause any such troubles.)

Good luck, have fun, and keep us posted!

Your advice is always welcome and appreciated Sir! I am going to order the Hornady's and get loading before too long.

My confusion is mainly my own fault, due to deciding to jump straight into progressive loading with more-or-less no experience. I'll figure it out though. If it weren't for the helpful people on THR I would have given up already. It is a bit of a daunting hobby.

The "binding cylinder" issue with the 340s doesn't seem to be new. I've found others complaining of the same problem. It isn't the end of the world though. Just more cleaning at times.

 

[blackd24]

It’s not that bad once you get used to it. Jumping right into a progressive IS intimidating though. I was intimidated going from a turret press to a progressive. But once you figure out how everything works it’s like riding a bike. Measure, verify and go slow. It’s very easy if you follow directions and pay attention. You will enjoy it and it will be rewarding shooting your own, accurate ammo.

 

[BJung]

The first thing you need to do is slug your barrel with pure lead and measure the diameter of the swaged slug with a micrometer and order bullets 0.001" over that measurement. Bullets of a smaller diameter could cause leading. I once researched various cast bullet manufacturers and found Missouri Bullets to be good but "run of the mill" bullets. As for hardness, your ideal load will adjust for the variable. Yet, for 38 specials shot with a low MV, the softer bullet is desired but not necessary.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

The first thing you need to do is slug your barrel with pure lead and measure the diameter of the swaged slug with a micrometer and order bullets 0.001" over that measurement. Bullets of a smaller diameter could cause leading. I once researched various cast bullet manufacturers and found Missouri Bullets to be good but "run of the mill" bullets. As for hardness, your ideal load will adjust for the variable. Yet, for 38 specials shot with a low MV, the softer bullet is desired but not necessary.

I've been reading about people "slugging the barrel". I'm off to Google the procedure.

Thank you.

 

[.38 Special]

I've been reading about people "slugging the barrel". I'm off to Google the procedure.

Thank you.

You are really heading down the rabbit hole. Have fun!

 

[tominboise]

I've been reading about people "slugging the barrel". I'm off to Google the procedure.

Thank you.

If you are going to slug the barrel, take the time to slug the cylinder throats as well. In a perfect world, as @.38 Special mentions, the throats should be bigger than the bore. That is the most critical interface.

 

[Zendude]

If you want to order some bullets before you get a chance to slug the barrels, (or if you are at an indoor range that doesn’t allow plain lead bullets) you can get copper plated wadcutters from Xtreme. They’re about 10 cents each, so a bit more than plain or coated lead. I haven’t used their wadcutters, so I can’t vouch for their accuracy.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

I ordered 500 of the Hornady 10208s and a box of .375 ball for slugging. I already have the doweling and dead-blow hammer (since pounding out that squib a couple months back).

Doesn't seem like it will be too difficult. I'll slug the Model 15, all three 340s, and the cylinder throats too.

How does one measure the slugs if S&W has 5 lands?

 

[Docendo Discimus]

Projectiles:
My immediate need is to get some bullets ordered. This is really the intent of this post. I practice defensive shooting and MAY start tinkering with a little bullseye shooting in the near future. the HiTek WC I've been shooting do not lead the barrels of my J frames a whole lot...but I am spending more time scrubbing out lead than I'd like to.

https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets/pistol/357-38/357-147-gr-rmr-fmj-smiley/
I recommend these jacketed flatpoints from RMR. Very good price and great for bulk loading.

 

[high country]

If you look around, you will find a thread or two where I chased down the throat diameter/barrel diameter rabbit hole with my model 15. I had a very poorly cut forcing cone and was getting leading. I rented the reamers and cut the forcing cone and reamed the throats. Can't hurt to know, but even if the throats seem on the tight side after slugging, shoot it first to see if you have a leading issue with your chosen loads before you bother changing anything.

I like a 158 grain SWC best, but if you are interested in wadcutter I agree with others in this thread that have pointed to the swaged HBWC over a light charge. If you like wadcutter and want something more in the standard pressure realm, get some MBC DEWCs and look up the Ed Helms full pressure .38 load. That is my second favorite load in the .38. The HBWC loads are nice, but the .38 doesn't recoil a lot at standard pressure so I tend to just load in the standard range for general use.

 

[cfullgraf]

For wadcutter loads, Bullseye, W231/HP38 or Accurate #2 are good powders. Others, like Unique or Accurate #5 will also work.

HBWC bullets do have a velocity restriction. If the velocity is too high, the skirt could get blown off and get stuck in the barrel. Stick with published data here but it may not be as fast as you want.

There are lots of comments on loading HBWC bullets upside down. Do you research and decide for yourself.

DEWC can be driven faster than HBWC loaded hollow base next to powder.

As a note, SWC bullets do load easier than wadcutters. Something to consider for rapid reloads.

 

[high country]

I ordered 500 of the Hornady 10208s and a box of .375 ball for slugging. I already have the doweling and dead-blow hammer (since pounding out that squib a couple months back).

Doesn't seem like it will be too difficult. I'll slug the Model 15, all three 340s, and the cylinder throats too.

How does one measure the slugs if S&W has 5 lands?

To get the bore diameter, measure from a land to the opposing groove, then measure the depth of one groove and add that to the prior measurement.

Another thing to look for is whether it gets tight where the barrel threads into the frame. If there is a tight spot, you can feel feel it pushing the slug or a tight patch through. Sometimes the barrels were over-torqued a little to get them clocked right, and it can create a little tightness there.

Again though - measure if it will make you feel good, but don't worry about it until you have fired it with the type of loads you plan to use and actually have a problem. The old adage "don't fix what ain't broke" definitely applies here.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

All good stuff. If it happens that I need to slug down the road, I'll be able to.

Thanks everyone!

 

[.38 Special]

Just for what it is worth, you're getting into sort-of graduate level stuff. Most people don't worry about slugging the bore and throats until they've been playing at the game for a while and are really trying to get top results from cast bullets. Jacketed and plated bullets are a lot less finicky about such things, primarily because they are a bit "springy". That is to say, if a cast bullet meets a constriction in the gun (like an undersized throat) then it will be sized down and will then be a "rattle fit" in the bore. Leading and poor accuracy result. But when a jacketed bullet meets the same constriction, it can spring back a little bit and still fit the bore. My theory is that soft HBWCs behave similarly, which is why they often give good results in less-than-perfect guns.

All of which is a long way of saying that all the measuring and figuring is not necessary. Chances are you can just load up your new bullets and they will work fine.

 

[Slamfire]

For decades, if not half centuries, the 38 Special 2700 Bullseye Pistol was a 148 WC grain bullet with 2.7 (ish) grs Bullseye Pistol powder. The desired velocity was 740 fps for stability at 50 yards. Based on the lot, the charge spread might be 2.6 grs to 2.8, with 2.9 on the high end. A shooter I know, a ten time PPC winner, 2.7 grains with a 148 lead was his load, unless he had to make major. The WC could be hollow base or flat base wad cutter.

That shooter said he had 600,000 rounds of lead bullets through his Shilen barreled K frame pistol, and it still grouped within 2 inches at 50 yards. It is hard to wear out a pistol barrel firing lead bullets and light loads. He did wear out cylinder ratchets, broke a firing pin, springs wore out, the pistol needed to be retimed. Still, his S&W did outstandingly.

If Bullseye Pistol powder is not available, Titegroup is an outstanding target powder. A PPC bud of mine used AA#2 with 148's. I think if these are hard to find W231/HP38 will do well, and is infact better for faster loads. The fast burning powders (Bullseye, Titegroup, AA#2, etc) are not flexible, you need to keep away from maximum loads in case you mess up, and put more powder in the case by accident.

I will say, the most flexible pistol powder I have used is Unique. In the 38 Special at standard velocities, that is a 158 grain lead at 760 fps, it does well. Not as good as Bullseye at the bottom end, but much better at max velocities.

S&W M64-5 four inch barrel.

158 LRN 4.5 grs Unique lot UN 364 3/9/1992 Brass mixed cases WSP
10-Jun-20 T = 85 °F

Ave Vel = 779.6
Std Dev = 27.4
ES = 109.7
High = 826
Low = 716.3
Number rds = 17

158 LRN 3.5 grs Bullseye lot 919 11-29-05 Brass mixed cases WSP
10-Jun-20 T = 85 °F

Ave Vel = 757.7
Std Dev = 22.6
ES = 60.06
High = 798.1
Low = 738.1
N = 6