Please school me on .38 Special wadcutters consumables

Slamfire said:
For decades, if not half centuries, the 38 Special 2700 Bullseye Pistol was a 148 WC grain bullet with 2.7 (ish) grs Bullseye Pistol powder. The desired velocity was 740 fps for stability at 50 yards. Based on the lot, the charge spread might be 2.6 grs to 2.8, with 2.9 on the high end. A shooter I know, a ten time PPC winner, 2.7 grains with a 148 lead was his load, unless he had to make major. The WC could be hollow base or flat base wad cutter.

That shooter said he had 600,000 rounds of lead bullets through his Shilen barreled K frame pistol, and it still grouped within 2 inches at 50 yards. It is hard to wear out a pistol barrel firing lead bullets and light loads. He did wear out cylinder ratchets, broke a firing pin, springs wore out, the pistol needed to be retimed. Still, his S&W did outstandingly.

If Bullseye Pistol powder is not available, Titegroup is an outstanding target powder. A PPC bud of mine used AA#2 with 148's. I think if these are hard to find W231/HP38 will do well, and is infact better for faster loads. The fast burning powders (Bullseye, Titegroup, AA#2, etc) are not flexible, you need to keep away from maximum loads in case you mess up, and put more powder in the case by accident.

I will say, the most flexible pistol powder I have used is Unique. In the 38 Special at standard velocities, that is a 158 grain lead at 760 fps, it does well. Not as good as Bullseye at the bottom end, but much better at max velocities.
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And thank you too Sir. I'm not particularly married to the 800fps figure...the wadcutters that I can buy locally are specified to be around that speed. Tomorrow I'm going to order a chronograph so that I can start figuring out the actual numbers are with my sub 2-inch barrels.

As my skills with the J frames get to where I'd like them to be, I plan to gradually start increasing pressures in an effort mimic a (yet unknown) .38+P factory defense round until my splits fall below levels I'm not comfortable with.

Does having j frames rated for .357 mag reduce the chance of a kaboom with .38 Special?
 
@TacticalJanitor you should change your name to Bugs Bunny. :D

There’s a few rabbit holes in your thread but mostly it’s pretty standard stuff - slugging chamber throats can be a pain so I rely on a good gunsmith I know to do it for me. Cudos for taking it on yourself. Don’t be surprised if you have to take a couple of tries at it. Most folks do.
The 148gr HBWC load is time tested and well proven. Smart move starting there.
TacticalJanitor said:
future. the HiTek WC I've been shooting do not lead the barrels of my J frames a whole lot...but I am spending more time scrubbing out lead than I'd like to.
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This comment throws a big red flag for me. Are these the commercial reloads you have been buying or your own reloads? The only time Hi-Tek coated bullets will leave lead is if the coating is scraped off in spots, typically from not flaring the case mouth properly before seating. Or, if it was not applied properly in the first place and is flaking off in the cylinder. Proper done, Hi-Tek doesn’t even leave a grease streak behind. Powder coating will sometimes leave a little paint rub behind but it cleans up with Hoppe’s just fine. The fact that you are finding deposits is a little concerning and I think you might want to chase that rabbit down first.
Just my opinion and worth everything you paid for it. :thumbup:
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
@TacticalJanitor you should change your name to Bugs Bunny. :D

There’s a few rabbit holes in your thread but mostly it’s pretty standard stuff - slugging chamber throats can be a pain so I rely on a good gunsmith I know to do it for me. Cudos for taking it on yourself. Don’t be surprised if you have to take a couple of tries at it. Most folks do.
The 148gr HBWC load is time tested and well proven. Smart move starting there.

This comment throws a big red flag for me. Are these the commercial reloads you have been buying or your own reloads? The only time Hi-Tek coated bullets will leave lead is if the coating is scraped off in spots, typically from not flaring the case mouth properly before seating. Or, if it was not applied properly in the first place and is flaking off in the cylinder. Proper done, Hi-Tek doesn’t even leave a grease streak behind. Powder coating will sometimes leave a little paint rub behind but it cleans up with Hoppe’s just fine. The fact that you are finding deposits is a little concerning and I think you might want to chase that rabbit down first.
Just my opinion and worth everything you paid for it. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

The "leading" is from the factory ammo I'm buying, as I don't yet reload. It's safe to say that it may not be leading at all, due to my lack of revolver experience. But, whatever it is, it's tough to get out of the barrel. I have to use a brass brush and scrub, scrub, scrub for at least 5 minutes (which, IMO, is a long time).

It is a problem I've not had in 10s of thousands of jacketed rounds through polygonal auto barrels.

I'm heading to the range for drills tomorrow. I'll see if my iPhone can catch a picture of the fouling in question when I get back and clean the range gun. If I'm lucky, you fellas will tell, "Oh, that's nothing. Don't worry about it".:)

Thank you.
 
I quit shooting uncoated/unplated bullets when I started having to do all my shooting indoors. Bare lead/lube bullets really smoke up a room, when the range is full I don’t make many friends leaving a lingering cloud after every cylinder full.

So, I have fired thousands of each type in WC, SWC, RN and HP form from my revolvers with only two easily rectified issues. Xtreme and Berrys plated DEWC, HP and SWC bullets work well, and for coated wadcutters, SWC, and RN bullets I shoot Missouri Bullet Co., Brazos Bullets, ACME, Eggleston and The Blue Bullets. All have all shot well for me.

The first issue I encountered involves not belling the case mouth enough. With plated bullets you can catch the plating on the edge of the case mouth and peel it off as you seat the bullet. Same goes for coated bullets, the coating can be scraped off leaving the bullet partially uncoated/unlubed which can lead your barrel.

The second issue is too much roll-crimp on plated bullets. The thin plating will cut with a gorilla crimp and it can come off in flight. I had this happen with DEWC and the accuracy went south when the front end of the bullet spun off. I knew this was the issue when I found lots of little holes and bits of plating stuck in my targets. A good taper crimp or a mild roll crimp is all you need to hold bullets in place and not damage the thin plating.

Most of my wadcutter loads use Bullseye (2.8 gr), but I have also used IMR Target (now discontinued), HP-38, AA#2 and sometimes Unique in a pinch. Titegroup works well for many, many shooters and can be very accurate stuff. But, I had a bad experience sticking bullets with it the first time I tried it out so I personally pass on TG. :(

A great load for J frames is 4.0 Unique under a 158 gr SWC. It has a bit more pep than the WC loads but doesn’t beat you up like spicier loads will. (It doesn’t take much to have your loads go from OK to unpleasant in a J frame, even a .357 version.) I prefer lighter loads in my small framed guns, one of my favorite training/fun loads is 3.5 gr Unique under an Eggleston coated 148 gr RN. Very mild and forgiving to the shooter, plus the RN profile works great teaching new shooter-type folks how to reload a cylinder with speed loaders/speed strips.

You have picked a great caliber to start with. There are a zillion loads out there for so many different uses that you could get dizzy just thinking about it. Once you get your J frame down pat, it is time to try for a target-sighted K frame .38 or maybe an L frame .357 and work up some loads for longer barrels. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 
Riomouse911 said:
I quit shooting uncoated/unplated bullets when I started having to do all my shooting indoors. Bare lead/lube bullets really smoke up a room, when the range is full I don’t make many friends leaving a lingering cloud after every cylinder full.

So, I have fired thousands of each type in WC, SWC, RN and HP form from my revolvers with only two easily rectified issues. Xtreme and Berrys plated DEWC, HP and SWC bullets work well, and for coated wadcutters, SWC, and RN bullets I shoot Missouri Bullet Co., Brazos Bullets, ACME, Eggleston and The Blue Bullets. All have all shot well for me.

The first issue I encountered involves not belling the case mouth enough. With plated bullets you can catch the plating on the edge of the case mouth and peel it off as you seat the bullet. Same goes for coated bullets, the coating can be scraped off leaving the bullet partially uncoated/unlubed which can lead your barrel.

The second issue is too much roll-crimp on plated bullets. The thin plating will cut with a gorilla crimp and it can come off in flight. I had this happen with DEWC and the accuracy went south when the front end of the bullet spun off. I knew this was the issue when I found lots of little holes and bits of plating stuck in my targets. A good taper crimp or a mild roll crimp is all you need to hold bullets in place and not damage the thin plating.

Most of my wadcutter loads use Bullseye (2.8 gr), but I have also used IMR Target (now discontinued), HP-38, AA#2 and sometimes Unique in a pinch. Titegroup works well for many, many shooters and can be very accurate stuff. But, I had a bad experience sticking bullets with it the first time I tried it out so I personally pass on TG. :(

A great load for J frames is 4.0 Unique under a 158 gr SWC. It has a bit more pep than the WC loads but doesn’t beat you up like spicier loads will. (It doesn’t take much to have your loads go from OK to unpleasant in a J frame, even a .357 version.) I prefer lighter loads in my small framed guns, one of my favorite training/fun loads is 3.5 gr Unique under an Eggleston coated 148 gr RN. Very mild and forgiving to the shooter, plus the RN profile works great teaching new shooter-type folks how to reload a cylinder with speed loaders/speed strips.

You have picked a great caliber to start with. There are a zillion loads out there for so many different uses that you could get dizzy just thinking about it. Once you get your J frame down pat, it is time to try for a target-sighted K frame .38 or maybe an L frame .357 and work up some loads for longer barrels. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
Click to expand...
it boggles my mind that this is some of the most accurate bullets for Bullseye shooting. Look at the shape, like a VW bus going to a indy race and winning.

Anyways, look at the rolled crimp, how important is that?
 
We may be the ole timers now.

Smarter here than me but that is a lot of crimp. I do more of taper crimp on 38 wcutters.
 
I'm glad that you fellas brought up the WC crimp. It's an issue I still need to work out. Today I managed to find a set of Dillon #14400 .38/.357 carbide dies and I ordered them. I paid too much...but didn't want to wait for months to get a set.

Some Internet searching didn't really make it clear if the crimp die in this set will work, work well, or work at all for WC. This searching also makes me suspect that I need a special part for the seating die for WC and it isn't clear if that part comes with the set.

Does anybody have experience with wadcutters and Dillon dies?

If I didn't mention it, my snubbies are Scandium and around 13 oz.. I don't know if crimp jump could be an issue.
 
Mark_Mark said:
Anyways, look at the rolled crimp, how important is that?
Click to expand...
In a S&W M-52 the lack of a roll crimp would would insure that you wouldn't ever make it through a Rapid-fire 5 shot string

In PPC , no matter how much you beveled the chambers, your speedloaders would hang up during reloads. It's bad enough that you're using a flat faced bullet, having the sharp edge of a taper crimped casemouth trying to align with the chambers is an invitation to causing your speedloader to hang up
 
ericuda said:
I agree if I could consistently crimp like that I'd be amazed. I'd still be happy with a good taper crimp though.
Click to expand...
All it takes to get a consistent roll crimp on a wadcutter is the trim your .38Spl cases to a uniform length.

Even factory 38Spl cases vary quite a bit in length. After sorting by headstamp, I usually measure them and trim to the shortest length to make them all uniform.

In my competition revolvers, I load with 160-170gr RN bullets and put a pretty stiff roll crimp on them. You can see the difference when shooting at anything over 40 yards
 
TacticalJanitor said:
The "leading" is from the factory ammo I'm buying, as I don't yet reload. It's safe to say that it may not be leading at all, due to my lack of revolver experience. But, whatever it is, it's tough to get out of the barrel. I have to use a brass brush and scrub, scrub, scrub for at least 5 minutes (which, IMO, is a long time).

It is a problem I've not had in 10s of thousands of jacketed rounds through polygonal auto barrels.

I'm heading to the range for drills tomorrow. I'll see if my iPhone can catch a picture of the fouling in question when I get back and clean the range gun. If I'm lucky, you fellas will tell, "Oh, that's nothing. Don't worry about it".:)

Thank you.
Click to expand...

The quickest way to remove leading is to use Copper ChoyBoy around a wire brush. You remove a strand and wrap it around the brush and clean as normal. NOTE: You must use COPPER ChoyBoy. There is a copper plated steel that you must avoid at all coat, it will damage your bore. So take a magnet and confirm it's all copper.
 
Blue68f100 said:
The quickest way to remove leading is to use Copper ChoyBoy around a wire brush. You remove a strand and wrap it around the brush and clean as normal. NOTE: You must use COPPER ChoyBoy. There is a copper plated steel that you must avoid at all coat, it will damage your bore. So take a magnet and confirm it's all copper.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I recently ordered a box of ChoreBoy. Is this the right one? I haven't used it yet, but will have to rustle up a magnet.

7A2DC27F-75E9-4273-89FF-BFDFDDFCAABD.jpeg
 
Blue68f100 said:
The quickest way to remove leading is to use Copper ChoyBoy around a wire brush. NOTE: You must use COPPER ChoyBoy. There is a copper plated steel that you must avoid at all coat, it will damage your bore. So take a magnet and confirm it's all copper.
Click to expand...

TacticalJanitor said:
Thanks. I recently ordered a box of ChoreBoy. Is this the right one? I haven't used it yet, but will have to rustle up a magnet.
Click to expand...

You don't need a magnet. It's printed on the box if it is "pure copper". Just look at the box.
 
I hate to see someone go down a rabbit hole of measurements, barrel and throat until they know they have a problem. Millions of clean rounds go down range very week without even a thought of such things. As explained by @.38 Special hollow based Wadcutters have the advantage of self adjusting to your barrel. They tend to be very soft lead, swagged and are best kept under 800 fps. Bullseye is the king for that bullet 2.7 grains the sweet spot for most. I have used 231/HP38 successfully but as others have mentioned they go a bit faster than 700 fps. Win244 is a newer powder available everywhere that has data available. Its burn profile is similar to 231/HP38 (same powder). If you can find a maker (hopefully someone will chime in) a coated bullet is a huge improvement to the shooting experience. No smoke from the lube, less issues with leading. Combined with a clean shooting powder like WinClean 244 it will go a long way to keeping you shooting more and cleaning less.

If I can impart a strategy to you. Don’t create a problem if it doesn’t exist. Try a few small lots of bullets, buy a pound or two of several powders who have highly published data and make some loads as experiments. Enough to get a good sense of accuracy and cleanliness. Evaluate your gun after shooting only that one combination at a time. Stay within published data and have fun. See what you and your gun like. All the slugging and measuring will only keep you off the range. Unless there is a problem ignorance is bliss! Keep your concentration on making good reliable ammo and have fun!
 
9mmepiphany said:
In a S&W M-52 the lack of a roll crimp would would insure that you wouldn't ever make it through a Rapid-fire 5 shot string

In PPC , no matter how much you beveled the chambers, your speedloaders would hang up during reloads. It's bad enough that you're using a flat faced bullet, having the sharp edge of a taper crimped casemouth trying to align with the chambers is an invitation to causing your speedloader to hang up
Click to expand...
Beat me to it :thumbup:.

Stay safe..
 
wcwhitey said:
I hate to see someone go down a rabbit hole of measurements, barrel and throat until they know they have a problem. Millions of clean rounds go down range very week without even a thought of such things. As explained by @.38 Special hollow based Wadcutters have the advantage of self adjusting to your barrel. They tend to be very soft lead, swagged and are best kept under 800 fps. Bullseye is the king for that bullet 2.7 grains the sweet spot for most. I have used 231/HP38 successfully but as others have mentioned they go a bit faster than 700 fps. Win244 is a newer powder available everywhere that has data available. Its burn profile is similar to 231/HP38 (same powder). If you can find a maker (hopefully someone will chime in) a coated bullet is a huge improvement to the shooting experience. No smoke from the lube, less issues with leading. Combined with a clean shooting powder like WinClean 244 it will go a long way to keeping you shooting more and cleaning less.

If I can impart a strategy to you. Don’t create a problem if it doesn’t exist. Try a few small lots of bullets, buy a pound or two of several powders who have highly published data and make some loads as experiments. Enough to get a good sense of accuracy and cleanliness. Evaluate your gun after shooting only that one combination at a time. Stay within published data and have fun. See what you and your gun like. All the slugging and measuring will only keep you off the range. Unless there is a problem ignorance is bliss! Keep your concentration on making good reliable ammo and have fun!
Click to expand...

That all sounds good to me. Thank you Sir!

I have a list of powders to hunt for in town today (thanks to you Gents). I also need to start shopping for a chronograph, preferably one that will interface with Apple iOS products for records.
 
ericuda said:
I agree with ya. I trim my revolver brass and seat and crimp separately which gives nice results.

Just not sure a crimp it's needed for wc's.
Click to expand...
You don’t need much of one for revolver shooting, a light crimp is all that’s needed to keep things consistent. The WC-specific autos need a bit more to help with feeding, as @9mmepiphany posted.

Stay safe.
 
9mmepiphany said:
All it takes to get a consistent roll crimp on a wadcutter is the trim your .38Spl cases to a uniform length.

Even factory 38Spl cases vary quite a bit in length. After sorting by headstamp, I usually measure them and trim to the shortest length to make them all uniform.

In my competition revolvers, I load with 160-170gr RN bullets and put a pretty stiff roll crimp on them. You can see the difference when shooting at anything over 40 yards
Click to expand...

I was hoping to avoid trimming .38 cases, but it sounds like it's going to be fairly necessary with WC. Now I need to get a case trimmer!

Thanks.
 
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