"Pointability"

[Shawnee]

Am posting this here and also on the "Blackpowder" forum just to be sure I hear from fans of both modern and not-so-modern handguns.

Like a lot of you guys who grew up with Roy and Gene and "Hoppy", and Marshal Dillon - and never really grew up, I harbor a fascination yet for the "Pointability" of handguns - that secret magic that makes one pistola more true of aim when unaimed (or maybe, "unsighted") than other designs.

Having used Ruger single-actions (w/adjustable sights) since Eisenhower and an assortment of double-action revolvers and semi-autos since "Louie, Louie" hit the charts - and now infected with blackpowder the suspicion is beginning to creep over me that the handgun designs of the 19th century may well be the most "pointable" designs of all.

When passed the surgery I just had on the shoulder of my gun hand I plan to do some Official Semi-Scientific Backyard testing to see if I can find one handgun type/design that shines above all others at the "draw and fire" gig - that is, seems to have the truest "natural point" for vanquishing adversaries regardless of political party. Not necessarily "fast-draw", mind you, but without bringing the gun up to use any type of sights. With reenactors and "Cowboy Shooting" afficionados all over the place I'm thinking some (or most) of you may have walked a ways down that trail ahead of me.

So how 'bout it you Acolytes of The Showdown - you Devotees of the Duel -what are your experiences, convictions, observations, thoughts, opinions, susperstions etc. about handgun "Pointability" and perhaps how you might devise an Official Semi-Scientific Backyard testing Protocol to determine which designs are best at High Noon ??

P.S. Will say that the replica 1875 Remington I bought recently looks like a strong candidate so far.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Let me offer two points:

First of all, the SAA is a very "pointable" and ergonometric gun (but so is the M1911 -- because a lot of "pointability" depends on how your gun fits you.)

Secondly, a lot of the old west gunfighters weren't all that good. Despite the occasional spectacular shot (such as "Wild Bill" Hicock shooting a man in the head with a Colt Navy at 70 yards or so), a gunfight was as much an exercise in wild shooting in those days as it is today -- but with poorly-trained men on both sides.

 

[BlindJustice]

THe Colt SAA 4 5/8" Bbl. Len. and the P-08 Luger are both
toward the top of the chart for pointability.

Uh, Vern wasn't Wild BIll Hickock's shot about a tale of
was confronting two BGs at a range of across the street, and
was shot at by somebody down the street about 79 feet away
and Hickcock shot him and then took on the other two?

Sounds like the O.P. oughta consider Cowboy Action shooting

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Uh, Vern wasn't Wild BIll Hickock's shot about a tale of
was confronting two BGs at a range of across the street, and
was shot at by somebody down the street about 79 feet away
and Hickcock shot him and then took on the other two?

I believe we are talking about two different incidents. This was about winning and losing a watch in a poker game.

 

[BlindJustice]

Okey, doke.... I think a lot of WIld Bill's prowess was always
sticking with his 1851 Navy, nothing like knowing your gun.

 

[sinistr]

im not a big believer in pointability,i choose a pistol for the features that fit my needs.then i practice with it until i am proficiant.if i picked one that naturally pointed the best for me ,id be packing a 1911.

 

[Geronimo45]

Are you talking revolvers only, or semis as well?

Of those I have, the little Beretta 21A takes the cake. Maybe because it's so muzzle-light. It points incredibly well. The only gun that might come close is the Walther P99, which seems to fit my hand very well... but I haven't got one of those yet.

The K-frame's the only revolver I've tried... but it's worked very well thus far. Still doesn't compare with the Beretta 21, though.

 

[Kind of Blued]

Your backyard sounds awesome, from what I've heard of it.

 

[Noxx]

Not sure if we're restricting ourselves to revolvers here. Nothing points for me like a Hi-Power, altho with sighted fire I am more proficient with a number of other guns, go figure.

 

[Shawnee]

Include any and all action-types and models into the discussion - only criteria is that you feel it to be highly accurate at your natural "point" with it.
Remember though - we're talking unaimed.

Thanks All !!!

 

[1911NM]

If 'twas me, I think I would take a long look at a birds head, or Bisley as I both feel they point better than a standard SAA grip. Whatever, close your eyes, bring the gun up to point, then open your eyes. Are you pointing where you are looking?

 

[AZAndy]

M1911, PA-63, and Bersa CCW all point well enough for me to plug a paper plate at 10 yards or so, from the hip. CZ52 and Nagant not so much. ;-)

 

[Vern Humphrey]

if i picked one that naturally pointed the best for me ,id be packing a 1911

God is trying to tell you something: "Pack a 1911."

 

[jpwilly]

Well that's a 1911 for me to...or more specifically around 11 degree grip...my PT145 also has the same angle of grip as my two 1911's.

 

[spiroxlii]

I never thought about it until now, but at any given range, I shoot tighter groups closer to POA with my Colt SAA replica with birds head grips than I do with any other handgun I've handled.

 

[ccmdfd]

Not sure if we're restricting ourselves to revolvers here. Nothing points for me like a Hi-Power, altho with sighted fire I am more proficient with a number of other guns, go figure.
__________________

I'm right with you on this one. The BHP points very well, but I shoot SIG's, HK's, and many others better.

 

[peacemaker45]

Some SASS matches include something called the "Outlaw," category. That's where both handguns and shotguns are shot unsighted. Aficionados of that sort of shooting claim it to be a lot of fun. I will agree, to a point, (pun intended) it is a lot of fun to watch. It's not a lot of fun to count misses for. Personally, I prefer to hit the things I shoot at, and therefore, I use those little things called sights, which are conveniently placed on most guns, right from the factory.

Kidding aside, those folks tend to take a 20-50% drop in their hit rate for unsighted fire.

~~~Mat

 

[novaDAK]

for me, Ruger P-series (with either the hogue wraparound grips on the metal frames or the slip on grip for the poly frames) fit my hands the best, and point naturally the best.

Sig P226 with the stock plastic ("P226" on them) grips also fits and points just as well.

1911 points great but is a little thin for my big hands so my grip slips sometimes.

 

[Grandpa Shooter]

I have tried for years now to convince people to buy whatever pistol or revolver points naturally for them. One of the above posters hit it right. Hold the gun below your waist and bring it up to eye level with your eyes closed. If it is pointing closely at the spot you picked before you closed your eyes and brought it up, it "points" well for you. It is a very good idea to practice point shooting, particularly in low light situations. Don't quit when it starts to get dark. That's the best time to see if you can hit a target in low light conditions. Point and shoot.

I enjoy shooting my western style pistols for that reason. They are fun to point and shoot. I can do it with any of my regular hand guns, just not as much fun.

 

[MCgunner]

I've found that if you practice with it enough, about anything is pointable. I never really liked the 1911, not enough trip there for me. I prefer my Rugers with Hogue grips, but that's what I'm used to. I can interchange my revolvers, my auto, I fall right into the flow. The P90 and P85 and my Kel Tec P11 get the most shooting among my autos and, so, therefore, I'm more used to 'em and they point natural for me. My Taurus 85 ain't far behind, though.

Much ado is made of "gun fit". You can't tell how a gun is going to work for you until you've put 5,000 rounds through it and have gotten used to it. And, lots of guns, especially revolvers, can be improved with aftermarket grips if you don't like the standard. I shoot the best with my Rugers, but that's because of all the practice and matches I've fired 'em in. Had I fired my Smith M10 that much, it'd likely be my favorite, my best. This is one reason I think shooting your carry guns a lot is a good thing. I don't carry the Rugers a bunch, but do that Kel Tec and that Taurus.

I will say, my single actions point higher, a good thing if you're shooting from a low position, "from the hip" as they say. I don't practice that, though, and when I shoot single actions, it's normally sighted for accuracy because they're outdoor revolvers. I have no use for point shooting with a single action. Can't hit a rabbit at 30 yards or a deer at 60 by point shooting.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My definition of "pointability" would be the same as with a shotgun -- keeping your eyes on the target, bring the gun up and you should automatically be looking dowm the rib (or through the sights) at the target with no need to adjust.

 

[MCgunner]

But, Vern, you can change the angle of your wrist. You can't really change the geometry of your physique. Oh, I guess you could with surgery, but not me. I'd rather cut on the stock than cut on my arms, shoulder, neck. You can get used to shooting ANY grip angle. Not really so with dimensions of a shotgun.

And, I thought we were talking point shooting with eyes well above the sights, anyway. Either way, it's what you are used to and shoot all the time, repeat muscle memory.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But, Vern, you can change the angle of your wrist. You can't really change the geometry of your physique. Oh, I guess you could with surgery, but not me. I'd rather cut on the stock than cut on my arms, shoulder, neck. You can get used to shooting ANY grip angle. Not really so with dimensions of a shotgun.

Actually, there are some guns you can shoot fast and well and some you cannot. There are limits to the adaptability of the body -- and especially when dealing with recoil and follow up shots.

The natural geometry of your body will put some handguns on target, and others not.

And, I thought we were talking point shooting with eyes well above the sights, anyway. Either way, it's what you are used to and shoot all the time, repeat muscle memory.

The point is, your eyes aren't "well above the sights" -- they may be looking over the sights, but the gun should be very close to an aiming position.

A shotgun gives you multiple "clues" as to where it is pointing -- shoulder, cheek, separated hands. A handgun does not -- hence it should point naturally.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, all I know is I have lots of handguns that come to the eye well for me. I'm not real picky. Only reason I don't like 1911s is the skinny grip. I like a gun that fills my hand. The 1911 is too small and skinny even with fat grips.

I do shoot best what I shoot the most.

 

[taliv]

only pistol that's ever "pointed" well for me was a Steyr S9. it's the one with the 111 degree grip angle and wacky triangular sites.

i wouldn't recommend it as the be-all-end-all of pistols... but it does point well