Police attempt to broaden bullet casing database

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(They left out the part where the Maryland SP lobbied to scrap their system as useless and referenced our COBIS farce during their testimony before the state legislature.)

State Police Sgt. Dennis Lyons hunched over the computer as images of two different handgun shell casings appeared on a monitor.

He pointed out the similarities in the rounded outer edge and center as he discussed how he was able to match a casing from a gun on file to one found at a crime scene. The comparison provided a vital lead in a homicide investigation by police in Utica.

He placed part of one image atop the other, showing how he concluded police needed to track down the gun whose shell casing matched the one from the Utica case.

Lyons was using a computerized gun casing database run by the federal government known as NIBIN, short for National Integrated Ballistics Information Network. It's one of two ballistics networks New York police officers use. The other is the Combined Ballistics Information System, called CoBIS.

Now the state is moving to create another firearms database, using a process known as microstamping, in which handgun firing pins are affixed with serial numbers that imprint on each round fired.

The databases have been criticized by gun rights advocates, who claim their use invades the privacy of law-abiding gun owners, drives up firearm prices and does little to solve or deter crimes.

CoBIS, in particular, has angered sportsmen groups in New York, with some arguing that the results of "gun fingerprinting" have not justified the millions of dollars spent on the 8-year-old program. The 2008 budget for CoBIS is about $1 million, according to the State Police.

One group, Orange County Shooters, has set up a Web site dedicated to criticizing CoBIS. The site points out that CoBIS has yielded only two matches, or "hits," of gun shell casings used in crimes, although more than 201,000 shell casings from guns have been entered into the database. The New York State Rifle & Pistol Association has also questioned the validity of the database.

The State Police have had better success with the NIBIN database, which is run by the FBI and U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, comparing shell casings from New York crimes against casings in the much larger federal database.

As of June 1, State Police have had 258 matches when comparing casings found at New York crime scenes to those on file through NIBIN, said State Police Sgt. Kern Swoboda.

The officers who run CoBIS say they knew it would take time for it to become useful.

"I don't know of any law enforcement tool that's perfect," said Gerald Zeosky, a State Police staff inspector who is director of the State Police Forensic Identification Center. "Anything we can apply to reduce crime, we're in favor of."

The CoBIS and NIBIN offices sit on the first floor of the State Police Forensic Identification Center in Albany.

Envelopes and boxes full of brass gun "casings" -- the jackets that cover bullets before they are fired -- sit on desks as some of the five CoBIS employees in Albany catalogue them in the computer system.

There are also six other casing collection sites in State Police troops around the state.

The casings come from shots fired by handguns sold in New York. State law requires that each gun sold in the state be test-fired before being sold so a casing can be recorded.

The goal is to have a casing on record from each gun, so that the markings left behind by the firing pin, when the casing is ejected after a shot is fired, and from the gun's breech can be used for comparison to casings found at a crime scene.

When he signed the bill into law that created CoBIS, then-Gov. George Pataki praised "gun fingerprinting" as an important step in fighting crime. In addition to being able to compare casings from crime scenes, the database can be useful in tracing handguns whose serial numbers have been defaced, if those guns can be test-fired.

Since the program's inception, gunmakers have provided 201,269 casings (as of June 1) to the State Police.

Two matches -- both cases from Rochester, one a shooting where a person was injured, the other a case where no one was apparently injured -- have occurred through casing comparisons.

Hits aren't definite matches, but potential matches that can be investigated further.

"It just provides a lead," Zeosky said.

Detractors in New York and other states where gun fingerprinting has been enacted or debated have questioned the cost of the program. In addition to its $1 million annual budget, about $4 million was spent to set up CoBIS.

Tom King, director of the New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, called CoBIS a "waste of money" and said other states, including California, that have looked into similar programs have opted not to pursue them.

Maryland started a similar program the same year as New York, and its program has also been criticized as ineffective, King said, including by the Maryland State Police.

"Our position is we are in favor of anything that will help get criminals off the street, but CoBIS isn't one of them," King said.

What becomes of CoBIS if a bill requiring microstamping on guns becomes law remains to be seen.

With microstamping, gun manufacturers would be required to outfit every handgun's firing pin with a tiny serial number that would get stamped on each shell casing the gun fires. Microstamping could make the matching of shell casings obsolete.

Zeosky said he doesn't know what will happen to CoBIS, or to the CoBIS staff, if microstamping becomes law.

Zeosky and Swoboda said State Police believe CoBIS is on the cusp of becoming more useful as its database grows.

Zeosky said the technology used by CoBIS has improved, allowing for more details on casings to be recorded, which should make it more useful.

Swoboda said the number of casings in the database is approaching the level where the matches will become more numerous. When the database was established, he said, it was understood that it would take seven to 10 years for matches to become frequent, based on studies of how often guns change hands.

"Until we really built up the database, we knew it wasn't going to work," Swoboda said. "Right now we're at the cusp of that seven-year mark. We're definitely going to see results in the future."

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surely all it would take is a file to the firing pin and a quick scrape to the chamber with a reamer and it makes this method of ID a farce .:scrutiny:
 
surely all it would take is a file to the firing pin and a quick scrape to the chamber with a reamer and it makes this method of ID a farce

True. But how many criminals will have the knowledge and/or ability to do that?:scrutiny:
 
Well I'm not a criminal but I'm not a gunsmith either and it was the first thing that sprang to mind when I read this , same as taking bullet samples is useless when you can just buy a new barrel . but your right the average crim is not too smart.
 
surely all it would take is a file to the firing pin and a quick scrape to the chamber with a reamer and it makes this method of ID a farce

But then the file or tool marks on the pin would just as easily become a new identifier if you used it after that.

With microstamping, gun manufacturers would be required to outfit every handgun's firing pin with a tiny serial number that would get stamped on each shell casing the gun fires. Microstamping could make the matching of shell casings obsolete.

Yep, until shooters discover new high-tech ways around this microstamping stuff, like brass catchers...or revolvers.
 
There was another post here or on TFL that went through the microstamping issue.
Long storry short, after ~200 rounds the stamp has worn off to a blur.
 
I know the primer marks only match, if the loads are of equal pressure, and sufficient pressure to make the primer fully conform to the primer firing pin and breech face.

Also, a very dirty bolt or slide face, will change the markings.
 
True. But how many criminals will have the knowledge and/or ability to do that

People call prison 'criminal college' for a reason. Yes, a ton of criminals would not bother, just like so many don't bother wearing gloves to prevent fingertips. But then most criminals are using stolen guns so it is unnecessary for them to file firing pins.

But then the file or tool marks on the pin would just as easily become a new identifier if you used it after that.

no, while the filing down would leave toolmarks, it wouldn't be nearly as neat and distinctive as a number stamp. Besides, your current firing pin is going to already be about as distinctive as a filed one at high enough magnification.
 
Well I'm not a criminal but I'm not a gunsmith either and it was the first thing that sprang to mind when I read this , same as taking bullet samples is useless when you can just buy a new barrel . but your right the average crim is not too smart.
Don't buy your barrel with a credit card.

Pilgrim
 
Generally these tracing systems don't work, but when the do what they find is that the gun has been stolen from the legal owner, and any paper trail is ended.

Only urban "progressives" believe that criminals use guns that can be traced to them. The few crooks that do deserve to be caught. My Grandma would have expressed the opinion that both (Progressives and criminials) don't have enough brains to keep their ears apart.
 
I notice they are very quick to say ...

... how many "hits" they got from their database ...

.... but nowhere to they say how many convictions they got from those "hits".

"Leads" are nice, but as a taxpayer, I'd like to see some actual meaningful (ie CONVICTIONS & SOLVED CASES) -results- please for my $millions. :banghead:
 
Hmmm. The first fear that came to my mind is to make certain that one picks up ALL of one's own cases at the range.

I can see more crimnals going to a range to pickup spent brass, then conducting a crime and dropping a couple spent cases from a range. Now that could complicate someone's life for a few weeks while they wait (in jail) for projectiles to be refuted. But by then, the bad guy has bought time to skip town, and the victim has been arrested, charged, and had all firearms conficated. Just sounds like an additional foolish idea.

JMHO
 
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but...

My sinister view of this is:

I suspect this gun fingerprinting is being driven by a state law. I think nearly everything that state legislatures and the US House/Senate do in the name of "reducing crime" or "protecting children" has an anti-gun and anti-freedom agenda.

We already have laws against shooting people and possessing guns illegally or stealing guns and other stuff. I think we should focus on punishment and rehab, with the emphasis on punishment-life sentences for repeat gun offenders or death penalty.

Doesn't he federal government have FBI and other data that prove more guns = less crime.

The answer is yes. Do politicians pay attention to these facts? Some do, but many "progressives" like Obama been Lyin' do not.
 
How ridiculous is this? $4million start up plus $1million a year budget for seven years?

$11,000,000 for 2 HITS!!!!!! Good god they are idiots!!! How many extra officers and investigators could they hire for that kind of money?

This is insane! Another example of anti-gun legislation taken to idiotic extremes.
 
$11,000,000 for 2 HITS!!!!!! Good god they are idiots!!!

Yup - $11,000,000 for technology that can be outwitted by a $300 revolver.

It would be interesting to see what company is selling this COBIS technology to the state police and how much they've given in campaign donations.
 
Well it said that they had 5 full time staff working in the unit. So lets see 5 full time workers for 7 years = two "hits" and that ignores the cost of setting up and running the system. Yep sure makes sense to me??? I think I would rather that they hire 5 full time investigators which I would think would have resulted in dozens of convictions per year for that last 7 years. Sounds like a wast of money to me.

They also compare it to the FBI database by implying that if the NY database was larger (IE. had been around longer) that they would be getting a similar number of "hits". But what they don't point out is that the FBI database ONLY contains info about guns that are known crime guns (IE. had been used in a crime) and as a result they were much more likely to see hits because these are all guns that are know to be in the hands of criminals. This is a completely different kind of database since the NY database contains ONLY guns that were purchased by law abiding gun owners and comparing the FBI database to the NY database is definitely NOT an apples to apples comparison.
 
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