Police chief squashes idea that gun owners might fight terrorists [Britain]

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OC-Trainer said:
In your (incorrect) opinion. Those in the know, think differently.


Oh, and while you're here, about that Columbine comment...

You do realize that there was and armed guard there, right? Cop? With a gun? Kind of destroys the whole gun free zone argument you keep trying to push, doesn't it?
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I served on the frontline in Europe during the Meinhoff-Red Army Faction campaign at a major target location, co-ordinated with the German Border Police including their GSG-9. Had plenty of training and worked to a supervisory level, and conducted training.

I don't who you refer to as being "in the know", but I can say with certainty that searching backpacks etc is not going to do it. You or anyone else can take that to the bank.
 
9MMare said:
I would like more information on this statement please. Can you explain how his opinion is incorrect?
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Let's let RPZ plead his case. Let him articulate and prove (with hard evidence) his statement that check points "are futile."

Especially since these are the some of the methods used everywhere that matters for these types of attacks.
 
OC-Trainer said:
Let's let RPZ plead his case. Let him articulate and prove (with hard evidence) his statement that check points "are futile."

Especially since these are the some of the methods used everywhere that matters for these types of attacks.
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Not especially taken with your deciding you run the discussion.

I am curious about what I asked...whether he is right or wrong doesnt really matter to me.

I just asked a question, respectfully.
 
9MMare said:
Not especially taken with your deciding you run the discussion.

I am curious about what I asked...whether he is right or wrong doesnt really matter to me.

I just asked a question, respectfully.
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Respectfully, it's not my job to prove a statement that someone else has made. His comment, he has to prove it to be true. I can disprove it, but let him prove it. That's how debates work.

Or just Google it ;)
 
OC-Trainer said:
Oh, and while you're here, about that Columbine comment...
You do realize that there was and armed guard there, right?
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Wrong
The closest one (and one of the two first respondents) was at Pamona High School. When he got there the fire sprinkler system was activated, the electricity had shut off and fire alarms were flashing red. Based on what they got from dispatch, they believed they were facing multiple (more than two) heavily armed attackers. They waited behind a truck in the parking lot for backup.
He said (to me) "They don't pay me a million dollars."
My comments are not intended to be disparaging. I wasn't there and make no judgements about why they did what they did.
 
stoky said:
Wrong
The closest one (and one of the two first respondents) was at Pamona High School. When he got there the fire sprinkler system was activated, the electricity had shut off and fire alarms were flashing red. Based on what they got from dispatch, they believed they were facing multiple (more than two) heavily armed attackers. They waited behind a truck in the parking lot for backup.
He said (to me) "They don't pay me a million dollars."
My comments are not intended to be disparaging. I wasn't there and make no judgements about why they did what they did.
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How sure are you? And what do you want to wager?
 
The gentleman that told me this was an acquaintance and fellow member of the Boulder Rifle Club.
 
OC-Trainer said:
Respectfully, it's not my job to prove a statement that someone else has made. His comment, he has to prove it to be true. I can disprove it, but let him prove it. That's how debates work.

Or just Google it ;)
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I see. I was just hoping for a direct answer.

How does a facility overcome the hazards of stacking up people at security checkpoints? How does a facility search/examine large numbers of people safely and in a timely manner?
 
The gentleman that told me this was an acquaintance and fellow member of the Boulder Rifle Club.
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Stoky,

You seem like a nice guy. I dig your avatar. I'm only playing with you.

Just do me a favor, fact check, fact check, fact check. A simple Google search will pull up dozens of links that show his name and what transpired that day.
 
9MMare said:
I see. I was just hoping for a direct answer.

How does a facility overcome the hazards of stacking up people at security checkpoints? How does a facility search/examine large numbers of people safely and in a timely manner?
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I can't answer that with 100% certainty. A lot of the techniques used aren't made public for obvious reason.

When you have time, take a look what is being done at Disney. State of the art.
 
9MMare said:
I just believe I have a pretty realistic view of the average citizen's abilities.
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I don't believe the average citizen would be armed. So their abilities are almost moot. Even in the US we only have around 85 million gun owners in a population of almost 300 million people. I don't know how many of those ~85 million have CC permits. But I will concede that even the vast majority of gun owners wouldn't know what to do, or how to do it, in a situation of an attempted mass shooting. But for those that do, they absolutely could have a positive affect on the outcome.

As stated by OC-Trainer, some things simply cannot be stopped. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be prepared to stop something we can. And it's at least possible that an observant armed person could stop something like a terrorist with a truck or pressure cooker bomb if people kept their noses off their cellphones when they were in public.
 
OC-Trainer said:
Stoky,
Just do me a favor, fact check, fact check, fact check.
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Jefferson County Sheriff (John Stone) was rabidly anti 2A, and some of the accounts that were portrayed by the LSM (and probably, subsequently, Google) were "creative", to express it charitably.
I was one of the Hams that facilitated communications between departments during the episode, which led to subsequent boondoggle(s) to make comms more "secure". :scrutiny:
While Google is great for arm chair fact checking and internet debates, you might want to do a little more fact checking yourself. ;)
http://www.westword.com/news/the-shadow-of-columbine-looms-over-this-jeffco-sheriffs-race-5121025
 
stoky said:
Jefferson County Sheriff (John Stone) was rabidly anti 2A, and some of the accounts that were portrayed by the LSM (and probably, subsequently, Google) were "creative", to express it charitably.
I was one of the Hams that facilitated communications between departments during the episode, which led to subsequent boondoggle(s) to make comms more "secure". :scrutiny:
While Google is great for arm chair fact checking and internet debates, you might want to do a little more fact checking yourself. ;)
http://www.westword.com/news/the-shadow-of-columbine-looms-over-this-jeffco-sheriffs-race-5121025
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I don't do tinfoil hats, either.

Yes or no, was there an armed guard there that day?

ETA: Enough, already! Let the excuses begin...

 
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If they have stop and search checkpoints on every highway between every junction, and intersecting secondary road, on every secondary road within x radius of x sized city and town, on every city roadway in business areas, shopping centers, every pedestrian thoroughfare, every waterway in the country, and on all roads leading to ports, docks, airports, train terminals, shipping terminals, chemical plants, factories etc al. Yes, you might stop a few of these jihadis from hitting a target.

And it will not stop backpack, car bomb or truck bomb attacks aimed at pedestrian and or vehicle traffic concentrations at checkpoints or elsewhere.

Nor will it stop knife attacks, hammer attacks, (add any blunt instrument) gun attacks, firebomb attacks, toxic chemical attacks, assassinations, kidnapping and all the other forms of terror attacks available to these guys. Customs and the Navy can stop and search any and all vessels in the UK already can not stop explosives like semtex, guns, heroin or anything else into the country as it is.

It would bring the country to a comparative standstill economically. And the checkpoints would never go away.

Their starting point should be to expell the twenty plus thousand in their terror watch list.
 
Tommygunn said:
:confused: why am I getting the feeling this thread is getting bedraggled and has gone beyond its usefulness?
Is it just me?
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Don't know. Maybe it is a matter of attention span.

In direct line with the OP, I have brought up the Israeli model, and so far no one has commented on that.
 
OC-Trainer said:
There's always going to be soft targets. Airports, stadiums, concert arenas, etc. That is never going to change. Terrorists hit those locations because they contain large groups of people, not because people are unarmed. Airports have armed security, as do stadiums, and not to mention law enforcement presence. Again, the types of attacks they are using in these locations, backpack pressure cooker bombs, for example (Manchester 2017), a gun won't stop.

Here we are, 6 pages deep into this thread and no one has been able to show any compelling evidence that suggests that an armed civilian would have any significant impact on these threats (the crux of this thread). The information that has been posted - the FBI study, the excellent links provided by Double Naught Spy - highlight that this is way more complex than just "packing heat." The sooner we realize this, the better.
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Maybe a citizen who tries to take out a terrorist will succeed, and maybe the citizen will fail. But the citizen who does NOT try will DEFINITELY fail.
 
RPZ said:
Don't know. Maybe it is a matter of attention span.

In direct line with the OP, I have brought up the Israeli model, and so far no one has commented on that.
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Israel has given us a great model. because of our slavish worship of Israel the whole west must now live like them under constant fear of attack
 
salt&battery said:
well if it wasn't for our worship of the Israelis how much terror would the west be seeing?
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I agree, to a degree. But let's not go that route here.

The fact is they have IDF, police, and armed citizens in the streets with at least some level of saturation. There are guys wearing shorts walking around with ARs.

And it is having an affect.
 
JR24 said:
I have often wondered what effect this would have is someone started doing this. I'm not advocating desecrating (and its gross to boot) but the thought that dying foe the jihad WONT get you to heaven, what would that do to recruiting efforts?

I do realize that often suicide bombers are essencially forced at gunpoint to do it and this would have no affect for these unfortunate souls
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They also don't get their reward if they are killed by a woman, one reason the Kurdish female fighters are so feared.
 
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