Police chief squashes idea that gun owners might fight terrorists [Britain]

[Elkins45]

No, it really hasn't. It is just that the media really plays up some types of mass shootings over others. Mass shootings defined as being 4 or more people shot other than the bad guy, do not mostly happen in gun free zones, but such shootings definitely seem more newsworthy. I have also seen how folks like to rework the mass shooting concept however...First, let's do away with any mass shooting that involves gang activity. Let's do away with any involving other crime. Let's do away with those where at least 4 people aren't killed (Mother Jones bizarre redefinition that a mass shooting isn't a mass shooting unless it is first mass murder). Now, it is a fact that most mass shooting in gun-free zones do happen in gun-free zones. That is true. However, you need to look at those that don't in gun-free zones that aren't necessarily on the national news. Then you realize how many are happening that aren't in gun-free zones.

Here are a few recent examples of non-gun-free zone mass shootings you probably never heard about.
http://www.pal-item.com/story/news/...etown-neighborhood-no-arrests-made/100735900/
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/06/10/7-shot-2-dead-shooting-fort-worth/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/at-least-5-people-shot-in-downtown-seattle-police-say/
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...e-party/ar-BBAyXIb?li=BB13Rnn&ocid=spartandhp
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/video?videoId=517938107&videoVersion=1.0
http://www.news4jax.com/news/jso-4-shot-in-moncrief-park
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...iff-s-deputy-fatally-shot-mississippi-n765596 (mass and spree)
http://www.wesh.com/article/6-people-shot-1-killed-in-parramore/3913697
http://www.khou.com/news/crime/six-...-apartment-complex-in-north-houston/425723842
http://www.wftv.com/news/local/poli...ding-2-boys-in-sanford-neighborhood/506352316

Frankly I am only concerned about two particular subsets of "mass shootings: random shootings in public places and random shootings in the workplace. A neighborhood drive-by gang murder isn't in a gun free zone, but as I am not in the drug trade those do not concern me.

As an educator I spent most of my career in a target- rich and legislatively decreed gun free zone. Until I left the building I was a sitting duck. I do not wish this state of affairs on anyone.

 

[PabloJ]

True, but history has also shown that most of these events have happened in gun free zones.

History has also shown that none of them have ever happened to me.

Whether such tragic event happens in gun free zone or non gun free zone is of no practical significance. The reason it will never happen to you has more to do with where you live more than anything else. What I mean is if you live in large metropolitan area chances of something bad happening are greater because there is more human contact there.

 

[Prijador]

OC-Trainer,
I have been to Disney World, recently - there are litterly hundreds of people crowded together waiting to go through security - not in security yet, just waiting. It's especially bad in the morning.
A historical example would be the guy who shot people waiting in line to go into the CIA in 1993. The Ariana Grande concert bombing was notably, in a waiting area. Security checkpoints aren't the perfect solution, not by a long shot. Every tool is needed. Situational awareness, training, a first aid kit, and yes, even a CCW.

 

[paulsj]

You forgot the most important thing which is praying real hard you aren't going to find yourself in wrong place at wrong time.

 

[OC-Trainer]

OC-Trainer,
I have been to Disney World, recently - there are litterly hundreds of people crowded together waiting to go through security - not in security yet, just waiting. It's especially bad in the morning.
A historical example would be the guy who shot people waiting in line to go into the CIA in 1993. The Ariana Grande concert bombing was notably, in a waiting area. Security checkpoints aren't the perfect solution, not by a long shot. Every tool is needed. Situational awareness, training, a first aid kit, and yes, even a CCW.

I agree with you, to an extent. I never said security checkpoints were the perfect solution. And you can be sure that Disney is well aware of what you described. There are things going on that you simply aren't seeing and, ultimately, some things are going to be impossible to stop.

However, what I find *interesting* is that the tactics that yield the greatest statistical odds of thwarting or reducing the severity of these attacks, have routinely been nitpicked by certain members in this thread. Yet, the option with the lowest odds of working (besides doing nothing), the non-leo CCW holder, is the one being touted as the best option. Let's just chalk that up to being on a gun forum.

What we just saw today with the horrible shooting in Alexandria, Virgina shows, yet again, that non-leo armed citizen is just simply not a factor in stopping these sorts of events.

 

[MistWolf]

Did you read the whole thread? I've already expressed my point a few times now.

Can you articulate Double Naught's point above? If you can do that, then we can talk...

I want you to clearly articulate your point. I would like to hear the answers to my questions in your words

 

[OC-Trainer]

I want you to clearly articulate your point. I would like to hear the answers to my questions in your words

Nope. Not rehashing it. Read the thread, it's all there. This thread is past its useful lifecycle as far as I'm concerned.

No offense, but I don't have time for people who don't read or fact check or who deny reality, and then come at me with hearsay, propaganda, and garbage. Not you per se, but they are in this thread.

 

[MistWolf]

I have done research. I have questions. Your response sounds like what you're espousing will not stand up to scrutiny.

Thank you

 

[Blkhrt13]

If we ever make it to the point where there is loads of check points and we have to carry our papers like commies we waited too late.

 

[RPZ]

Yet, the option with the lowest odds of working (besides doing nothing), the non-leo CCW holder, is the one being touted as the best option. Let's just chalk that up to being on a gun forum.

Go to the first post and read the headline again. That is the topic.

The "nitpicking" you refer to is as valid as the shortfalls in the "solutions" you offer as counters to the subject of people in general being armed, like they are - or perhaps with even greater saturation - in the State of Israel.

Someone, including the British Chief Constables, tell me how an unarmed populace is going to increase the odds in cases like this, as opposed to the Israeli model where there is a decent chance that someone(s) might be around to intervene...

http://www.wlky.com/article/reports-gunmen-attack-coptic-christians-near-cairo/9935822

 

[BigBore44]

I have done research. I have questions. Your response sounds like what you're espousing will not stand up to scrutiny.

Thank you

Some live, and die, by statistics. And some cannot accept that statistics are only a POSSIBLE prediction of what MIGHT happen in a situation with like minded people. But you change one of those variables and everything can change.

Personally I don't want to wait in ridiculously long lines everywhere I go so that someone making $10/hr, who doesn't know jack about searching a vehicle, can do their little meaningless search. Welcome to the TSA. And all they have to search are bags and people. Still, hundreds of guns get past them every year.

Theres only one way to stop terrorists. And, since that's not an option, we have to accept that it's always going to be. And we just have to do the best we can. The government played a major role. They have an impossible, and thankless job. But they try. Citizens also play a role. And it's just as impossible.

 

[RPZ]

This "security guard' is not wearing a uniform. But it illustrates on a smaller scale the obvious answer to vehicle attacks combined with other weapons.



No, an armed populace is not the answer...

 

[paulsj]

All we can do is pray and hope not to be in wrong place at the wrong time. It's should be painfully obvious by now that we can't beat them.

 

[RPZ]

All we can do is pray and hope not to be in wrong place at the wrong time. It's should be painfully obvious by now that we can't beat them.

"Beat them" no, at least not in the absolute sense; "terrorism" has been around since the beginning of recorded history, and is never going to go away completely. However there are some basic guidelines to limit their impact on your nation so as to make them an insignificant issue. And as a nation, rule one is, do not let them in to begin with. If you have let them in, get them out.

 

[Blkhrt13]

I have also found a historic president for placing ones foe on a pike slowly allowing them to slide down as you raise it. A field such as this is bound to have an immediate effect on the morale of ones enemies. But this is no solution in a modern word. Once upon a time many of our ancestors were the "terrorists" on other people's lands. Including the dirt we currently occupy as a nation. I feel we are far of topic and no good may come of it.

 

[RPZ]

So everyone agrees the Israeli model is incompatible with Britain - or the U.S. for that matter? Do we have a consensus that the Brit Chief Constables are right in poo pooing the idea of an armed Britain, and should consign themselves to be a nation of rabbit people? Going once... going twice...

 

[Blkhrt13]

I'm not sure I care. Britain is no place I will live. The nanny state is too much. Not to mention the hypocrisy of using guns to rob all these other places of riches and refusing to let their people defend themselves.

 

[Blkhrt13]

I'm far more concerned with not winding up like them

 

[PabloJ]

So everyone agrees the Israeli model is incompatible with Britain - or the U.S. for that matter? Do we have a consensus that the Brit Chief Constables are right in poo pooing the idea of an armed Britain, and should consign themselves to be a nation of rabbit people? Going once... going twice...

Some chances are worth taking not everyone wants to live in military/police state. Welcome to the new normal, gents and ladies.

 

[PabloJ]

This "security guard' is not wearing a uniform. But it illustrates on a smaller scale the obvious answer to vehicle attacks combined with other weapons.



No, an armed populace is not the answer...

Look at the upside scary knife attack is far more preferable to scary assault rifle attack. Basically some safety has to be sacrificed for individual freedoms as we have in USA.

 

[RPZ]

Look at the upside scary knife attack is far more preferable to scary assault rifle attack. Basically some safety has to be sacrificed for individual freedoms as we have in USA.

Actually, a knife up close in a crowd is worse.

 

[RPZ]

I'm not sure I care. Britain is no place I will live. The nanny state is too much. Not to mention the hypocrisy of using guns to rob all these other places of riches and refusing to let their people defend themselves.

Coming to a city near you. Do you think they have not been importing those jihadis here?? Or have you been asleep the last 8 years.

 

[RPZ]

Some chances are worth taking not everyone wants to live in military/police state. Welcome to the new normal, gents and ladies.

An armed populace is the antithesis to the police state.

 

[old lady new shooter]

This "security guard' is not wearing a uniform. But it illustrates on a smaller scale the obvious answer to vehicle attacks combined with other weapons.



No, an armed populace is not the answer...

I saw the Israeli event at the time. I was just starting to learn about self-defense then and was astonished to see the terrorist keep getting back up. But FWIW it was my understanding that the good guy was just an armed civilian, not a "security guard".

 

[salt&battery]

An armed populace is the antithesis to the police state.

yea but it is not working to well