Police Departmant pump guns
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dfariswheel
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Not much.
Remington owns something on the order of 90% plus of the law enforcement market, local, state, and federal.
A few departments use the Mossberg and fewer still use Ithaca.
I know of no major or even minor departments that use Winchester, although I'm sure there's a couple of odd-balls who do.
The fact is, no modern shotgun stands up to the abusive treatment police give them better than the 870.
Those departments that have tried the Mossberg and Winchester are usually disappointed, and go back to the 870.
Of the agencies that tried or still use the Mossberg or Winchester, they do so strictly for price reasons.
The Winchester 1200/1300 debacle is well known, and most agencies won't even consider Winny's anymore.
Nothing succeeds like success, and no shotgun has a better reputation and actual "real world" performance than the 870.
Remington owns something on the order of 90% plus of the law enforcement market, local, state, and federal.
A few departments use the Mossberg and fewer still use Ithaca.
I know of no major or even minor departments that use Winchester, although I'm sure there's a couple of odd-balls who do.
The fact is, no modern shotgun stands up to the abusive treatment police give them better than the 870.
Those departments that have tried the Mossberg and Winchester are usually disappointed, and go back to the 870.
Of the agencies that tried or still use the Mossberg or Winchester, they do so strictly for price reasons.
The Winchester 1200/1300 debacle is well known, and most agencies won't even consider Winny's anymore.
Nothing succeeds like success, and no shotgun has a better reputation and actual "real world" performance than the 870.
fix
Member
I must be out of touch then. Please give an overview of the "debacle."
Gunsnrovers
Member
I think, and I'm sure someone knows for sure, that the LAPD is the largest user of the Ithaca 37.
JesusCow
Member
Mostly 870s at my dept. a few Mossburgs as well. Recently put on synthetic stocks on them...
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
My guess, the 870's market share is more like 95%. As to why, it's very simple.
No other shotgun currently made holds up as well under bad conditions, marginal PM and operation by unmotivated and lackadaisical personnel.
Like those pink little drum beating bunnies, 870s just keep going and going and going.
As for the debacle....
In the late 70s the Winchester 1200 was pushed as the cheapest equivalent to the 870. Many agencies tried them and the S&W 3000, a virtual clone of the 870 made in Japan by Howa.
Neither held up. The 1200s used in the Md Prison system lasted less than 3 years. They were replaced temporarily by obsolete Model 12s and 97s until new 870s could be purchased. There's a lesson there.
Both the 1200 and 3000, when cared for and not abused, are decent shotguns.
Actual working life of an 870 seems to be about 250,000 rounds. That's not a misprint.
No other shotgun currently made holds up as well under bad conditions, marginal PM and operation by unmotivated and lackadaisical personnel.
Like those pink little drum beating bunnies, 870s just keep going and going and going.
As for the debacle....
In the late 70s the Winchester 1200 was pushed as the cheapest equivalent to the 870. Many agencies tried them and the S&W 3000, a virtual clone of the 870 made in Japan by Howa.
Neither held up. The 1200s used in the Md Prison system lasted less than 3 years. They were replaced temporarily by obsolete Model 12s and 97s until new 870s could be purchased. There's a lesson there.
Both the 1200 and 3000, when cared for and not abused, are decent shotguns.
Actual working life of an 870 seems to be about 250,000 rounds. That's not a misprint.
dfariswheel
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In the old days, THE police shotguns were the Winchester Models 1897 and 1912.
In 1964 Winchester had to discontinue the milled steel Model 12, and the replacement was the cast aluminum and stamped Model 1200.
Winchester sold the police on the idea of a lighter, more rust-resistant shotgun with a modern rotary bolt.
The Model 1200 went straight into the tank.
The gun simply failed to stand up to the abusive treatment police dish out, and Winchester took a big-time hit on reputation and sales.
After a quick re-design, Winchester rolled out the "new and improved" Model 1300, and convinced police agencies that the Model 1200 was a fluke.
In short, the 1300 was as big a failure as the 1200 and law enforcement voted with their feet. They went in-mass to the Remington 870.
The police experience with the 1200/1300 was so bad, that today Winchester's police market share is approaching Zero.
The 1200/1300 problems were systemic, not one or two problems that could be fixed. The design is just not able to stand up under the day-to-day use police put them through.
The problems with police shotguns started in the post-WWII days when, like Winchester, most makers could no longer continue to produce the solid milled steel old designs.
The old designs were bullet-proof and lasted about forever, but were too expensive to make.
Remington got the bulge on everybody with their forged and milled steel receiver and heavy-duty fabricated internal parts.
Everyone else had the idea that you could use cast aluminum and stamped steel to build a gun the equal to a Model 12 or an Ithaca Model 37.
The bottom line is, so far, no aluminum and stamped gun can take the wear and tear like the 870, and this is why they OWN the law enforcement market.
Nobody is saying the Winchester or Mossberg isn't a good gun.
They're just not up to police use.
In 1964 Winchester had to discontinue the milled steel Model 12, and the replacement was the cast aluminum and stamped Model 1200.
Winchester sold the police on the idea of a lighter, more rust-resistant shotgun with a modern rotary bolt.
The Model 1200 went straight into the tank.
The gun simply failed to stand up to the abusive treatment police dish out, and Winchester took a big-time hit on reputation and sales.
After a quick re-design, Winchester rolled out the "new and improved" Model 1300, and convinced police agencies that the Model 1200 was a fluke.
In short, the 1300 was as big a failure as the 1200 and law enforcement voted with their feet. They went in-mass to the Remington 870.
The police experience with the 1200/1300 was so bad, that today Winchester's police market share is approaching Zero.
The 1200/1300 problems were systemic, not one or two problems that could be fixed. The design is just not able to stand up under the day-to-day use police put them through.
The problems with police shotguns started in the post-WWII days when, like Winchester, most makers could no longer continue to produce the solid milled steel old designs.
The old designs were bullet-proof and lasted about forever, but were too expensive to make.
Remington got the bulge on everybody with their forged and milled steel receiver and heavy-duty fabricated internal parts.
Everyone else had the idea that you could use cast aluminum and stamped steel to build a gun the equal to a Model 12 or an Ithaca Model 37.
The bottom line is, so far, no aluminum and stamped gun can take the wear and tear like the 870, and this is why they OWN the law enforcement market.
Nobody is saying the Winchester or Mossberg isn't a good gun.
They're just not up to police use.
Marvin Gardens
Member
I don't know if LAPD is using any Ithica shotguns anymore. The only shotgun I've seen them with for several years has been the 870.
Regards
Regards
Gunsnrovers
Member
I know the last LAPD and Culver City cars I saw has Ithaca's in them. The Culver City car had an AR of some sort as well.
fix
Member
I guess I just get confused about what "day-to-day use police put them through" actually is. I'm pretty neutral on the pump gun issue. I have an 870 and 2 1300s. But my 1300s get shot...a lot. I have close to 20,000 rounds through one of them in less than 2 years. Buckshot and slugs mostly. This gun also bounces around behind the seat of my truck every day. The other has been used exclusively for slugs, 3" at that, and has about 4000 rounds through it. What exactly do cops do that breaks the guns, and could it be that the guns are abused more than used? I know the 870 has the edge when it comes to durability, but I think that edge might be slighter than folks make it out to be. Sacrelige maybe, but that's how I see it.
What do PD guns get that others dont?
Lets see....zero maintenace...zero cleaning...three different users a day...thrown around...shot once a year....rarely cycled....
This takes quite a bit of toll on a gun. The 870 is simply the best option out there. After all the gun sees, it has but ine requirement....it has to work every single time its needed, whether its even been touched in a year.
Lets see....zero maintenace...zero cleaning...three different users a day...thrown around...shot once a year....rarely cycled....
This takes quite a bit of toll on a gun. The 870 is simply the best option out there. After all the gun sees, it has but ine requirement....it has to work every single time its needed, whether its even been touched in a year.
fix
Member
Then why on earth are police issued ARs as patrol carbines vs. AKs?
I think, and this thread is re-enforcing that thought, that the problem is the lack of proper procedures more than a lack of durability on the part of non-870s. What say you?
I think, and this thread is re-enforcing that thought, that the problem is the lack of proper procedures more than a lack of durability on the part of non-870s. What say you?
Cosmoline
Member
The 870's biggest drawback is the safety, which is invisible to the shooter and can be flicked on and off far too easily. Mossberg's tang safety is superior by far. I have a hard time believing the 870's has *any* durability edge on a 500. I've been downright brutal to my 500, and I only owned it after it had been used by police for a decade then by bush contractors for another decade.
The Ithaca's big advantage is clear--weight. The Model 37 weighs a lot less than a 500 or 870. If I were on patrol I wouldn't mind one, esp. a "stakeout" model.
The Ithaca's big advantage is clear--weight. The Model 37 weighs a lot less than a 500 or 870. If I were on patrol I wouldn't mind one, esp. a "stakeout" model.
I dont feel that the tang safety on the mossy is superior, it boils down to preference. I am used to the crossbolt on the 870, so I like it fine.
As for the AR vs AK statement, departments that issue the AR usually have more stringent firearms care policies than the norm...and most ARs that I know of that are issued are issued to the Officer, as the shotgun is usually assigned to the car...thus less sense of "ownership".
I do believe the 870 is miles and miles more durable then the 500, but I do conced that most shooters will never wear either out. I simply dislike the "cheap" feel of the mossies..I just wish Remingtons ghost rings were as nice as Mossbergs.
As for the AR vs AK statement, departments that issue the AR usually have more stringent firearms care policies than the norm...and most ARs that I know of that are issued are issued to the Officer, as the shotgun is usually assigned to the car...thus less sense of "ownership".
I do believe the 870 is miles and miles more durable then the 500, but I do conced that most shooters will never wear either out. I simply dislike the "cheap" feel of the mossies..I just wish Remingtons ghost rings were as nice as Mossbergs.
dfariswheel
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The key to the 870's domination of the police market is actual performance, versus other brands.
This is not a matter of anecdotal stories like:
"My 870 failed on the first magazine load right out of the box"
or "My "X" brand shotgun has thousands of rounds through it, and has never failed".
The "bottom line" is, starting in 1950 you put hundreds of thousands of your gun into the hands of law enforcement, and then check the failure rate.
The real world fact is, NO modern shotgun has a DOCUMENTED lower failure rate than the 870.
When 95% of people are using a specific gun, they have to know something.
Again, this doesn't mean Mossberg's or Winchester's are bad guns.
It just means that in the real world of police usage, they failed to stand up, TO POLICE USE.
There are millions of Mossberg's and Winchester's in the hands of sportsmen that work quite well.
You can pick your own reasons why they failed, or why they shouldn't have failed, but the fact stands: They DID fail, and 95% of law enforcement uses Remington 870's.
I suspect the reason why police guns fail more than civilian guns is, civilians OWN their guns. We have to pay for them, and we can't afford to treat a gun like it's toilet paper.
You may not take care of your gun, but neither do you run over it with the car, or use the barrel to pry open a steel door.
Most police guns are owned by NOBODY and EVERYBODY.
In most departments, the shotgun is something pulled off a rack at the start of shift, or it's something that's already stored in the trunk or lock rack in the patrol car.
It isn't something used very often, and if something is wrong with it, somebody ELSE is responsible for getting it fixed.
Whether it needs maintenance is somebody ELSE's problem.
You just get another one from the armorer.
Most department armorers will tell you that most of their "repairs" to the 870 is replacing broken sights, splintered stocks, bent or crushed barrels, and heavy rust or fouling.
These repairs are usually traceable to either neglect, or more often, deliberate abuse.
Police seem the think the shotgun makes a handy "tool" for battering doors down, using the barrel as a pry bar, or a club.
Ever examined any piece of "community" property or equipment?
Take a look at a wrench you own. It may be dirty, rusty, and battered, but it works.
Look at a wrench used in a shop full of people. In all likelihood it's in terrible shape, if it actually works at all.
Police firearms are no different.
There's a difference between not taking care of YOUR gun, and treating the department's gun like it's used toilet paper.
This is not a matter of anecdotal stories like:
"My 870 failed on the first magazine load right out of the box"
or "My "X" brand shotgun has thousands of rounds through it, and has never failed".
The "bottom line" is, starting in 1950 you put hundreds of thousands of your gun into the hands of law enforcement, and then check the failure rate.
The real world fact is, NO modern shotgun has a DOCUMENTED lower failure rate than the 870.
When 95% of people are using a specific gun, they have to know something.
Again, this doesn't mean Mossberg's or Winchester's are bad guns.
It just means that in the real world of police usage, they failed to stand up, TO POLICE USE.
There are millions of Mossberg's and Winchester's in the hands of sportsmen that work quite well.
You can pick your own reasons why they failed, or why they shouldn't have failed, but the fact stands: They DID fail, and 95% of law enforcement uses Remington 870's.
I suspect the reason why police guns fail more than civilian guns is, civilians OWN their guns. We have to pay for them, and we can't afford to treat a gun like it's toilet paper.
You may not take care of your gun, but neither do you run over it with the car, or use the barrel to pry open a steel door.
Most police guns are owned by NOBODY and EVERYBODY.
In most departments, the shotgun is something pulled off a rack at the start of shift, or it's something that's already stored in the trunk or lock rack in the patrol car.
It isn't something used very often, and if something is wrong with it, somebody ELSE is responsible for getting it fixed.
Whether it needs maintenance is somebody ELSE's problem.
You just get another one from the armorer.
Most department armorers will tell you that most of their "repairs" to the 870 is replacing broken sights, splintered stocks, bent or crushed barrels, and heavy rust or fouling.
These repairs are usually traceable to either neglect, or more often, deliberate abuse.
Police seem the think the shotgun makes a handy "tool" for battering doors down, using the barrel as a pry bar, or a club.
Ever examined any piece of "community" property or equipment?
Take a look at a wrench you own. It may be dirty, rusty, and battered, but it works.
Look at a wrench used in a shop full of people. In all likelihood it's in terrible shape, if it actually works at all.
Police firearms are no different.
There's a difference between not taking care of YOUR gun, and treating the department's gun like it's used toilet paper.
SRYnidan
Member
Dave
It has been mentioned that the S&W 3000's had some kind of durablity problem, but never what it was.
I ask as I have owned and used the same 3000 as a 3 gun competion and HD weapon since before 1982 and it has never had even a single problem.
I admittedly do not abuse my equipment ( dad was a gunsmith) but I do shoot a lot more high base and slugs than most people.
I am not challenging the validity of the statement only looking down the road to when I may have to replace my beloved Nipon made 870 with it's understudy.
Glad to see you back
It has been mentioned that the S&W 3000's had some kind of durablity problem, but never what it was.
I ask as I have owned and used the same 3000 as a 3 gun competion and HD weapon since before 1982 and it has never had even a single problem.
I admittedly do not abuse my equipment ( dad was a gunsmith) but I do shoot a lot more high base and slugs than most people.
I am not challenging the validity of the statement only looking down the road to when I may have to replace my beloved Nipon made 870 with it's understudy.
Glad to see you back
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
IIRC, the S&Ws had a tendency to hang up when dirty, and this was accentuated when subjected to zero PM in MD's moist climate. I wasn't in on the decision to junk them and return to purely 870s, but I had some input and a stack of reports. It was easier to junk the 3000s than teach our armory officers to take good care of them, and then make sure they did.
COrrections' biggest problem has always been personnel.
I've seen agency 870s with enough iron oxide formed on them to make a good burnt umber pigment work OK, and even seem smooth after the standard application of two drops of lube on the action bars.
Be advised that those 3000s in civilian hands seem to work well.
COrrections' biggest problem has always been personnel.
I've seen agency 870s with enough iron oxide formed on them to make a good burnt umber pigment work OK, and even seem smooth after the standard application of two drops of lube on the action bars.
Be advised that those 3000s in civilian hands seem to work well.
The 870 and Mossberg both have strengths and weaknesses. The 870 safety is inherently unusable for anything other than administrative functions while the Mossbergs may actually be used in a fight. The 870 is also incredibly reliable and will work even when action bars and firing pin springs are broken and the gun is physically worn out.
Cop guns get beaten to death, but rarely worn out. They get shot seldom but are exposed to all the abuse possible. The 870 has a track record that will be tough to beat, until somebody comes out with a dropsafe double action shotgun (though nobody but it when Mossberg did)
I also understand that the Winchesters have a glitch in their manual of arms that makes uploads and downloads problematic, though I do not have the experience or expertise to address it. The Ithacas were neat guns but the lack of a disconnector and the difficulty in swapping ammo and speedloading makes them less than optimal. Slamfire may be fun, but still less than optimal.
I worked for an agency that had a number of S&W3000s that did fine. I was never isued one, but saw no more problems with them than the 870s, but our maintenace geek was pretty much on the ball when it came to preventive stuff.
Cop guns get beaten to death, but rarely worn out. They get shot seldom but are exposed to all the abuse possible. The 870 has a track record that will be tough to beat, until somebody comes out with a dropsafe double action shotgun (though nobody but it when Mossberg did)
I also understand that the Winchesters have a glitch in their manual of arms that makes uploads and downloads problematic, though I do not have the experience or expertise to address it. The Ithacas were neat guns but the lack of a disconnector and the difficulty in swapping ammo and speedloading makes them less than optimal. Slamfire may be fun, but still less than optimal.
I worked for an agency that had a number of S&W3000s that did fine. I was never isued one, but saw no more problems with them than the 870s, but our maintenace geek was pretty much on the ball when it came to preventive stuff.
Because you can't get AKs dirt cheap from fed.gov? Also, because the manner of issuance (as someone noted) is often completely different. Only rarely are shotguns issued to an individual officer (naturally, this will vary by department), and are instead issued to a cruiser or, worse, issued to a unit and doled out daily to different bodies. This is because all officers are usually qualified to carry a shotgun, and so the beancounters note that they can treat shotguns like cruisers...buy enough to put on the steet, but there is no need to buy enough to give one to everyone as part of their personal kit. Thus, it ends up treated as a piece of community equipment to just issue at roll call. And it shows.
Rifles are different. First off, usually not all officers are qualified to carry them. Secondly, its a pretty good idea for the rifleman to sight in his own rifle. This usually means that rifles are issued to officers, a I understand it. Those with actual experience with patrol rifles, feel free to chime in. But, this tends to mean that they are much better cared-for. Using my department as an example, you will see a officer carrying an obviously neglected shotgun, but if you were to field strip his sidearm, it would be immaculate and well-oiled. Why? One gun is 'his' and one is not.
Yup. As everyone has said, the non-870 guns are fine as long as you don't beat them all to hell like the cops do. But the cops are going to treat them poorly (with exceptions, of course) as long as the shotguns are not issued to individual officers.
Mike
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