Police Duty Weapon: Kimber 1911 or Sig P220R?

LE use: Kimber 1911 or Sig-Sauer P220?

  • Going Classic: High-end Kimber .45 for me!

    Votes: 70 34.8%

  • Going Classy: The Sig-Sauer P220 takes my vote!

    Votes: 131 65.2%
  • Total voters
    201
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HMMurdock

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Alright, here is a hypothetical:

Let's say you've been hired by a large metropolitan Police Department with a high crime rate and you are encouraged to supply your own sidearm (true story). Long story short, they'll permit to you carry a high-end Kimber 1911 .45ACP or a Sig-Sauer P220R .45ACP.

Which one do you choose and why? We all have our "favorite" sidearms, but please just keep the comments focused on these two sidearms and the variantes thereof (Kimber TLE II, Kimber Gold Combat, Sig P220-ST, Sig P220R, etc.) and good reasons why one is superior for the purposes of law enforcement over the other.

For the record, they are both fine sidearms and neither one is a poor choice, but which would you opt for if only permitted one? I need help deciding and I figured I'd bring it to my fellow High Roaders...
 
I'd choose the Sig, because of my experiences with 1911s have been bad...jams.

And in a life saving/threatening situation, I don't want my duty weapon to malfunction on me when miliseconds count.
 
Does the department provide field or full armorer support for both pistols? If not, what are the policies relevant to maintenance like? The answers matter, or should, before an fully educated choice can be made.
 
I personally prefer the 1911 single action. If it has to be a Kimber, I'd personally look for a non "II" series w/ internal extractor and no Swartz safety. If you're okay with the Swartz safety, then whichever modern model fits your requirements would be fine.
 
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Well, I'm not all that crazy about your designations of "classic" versus "classy" to describe these two, but that is not the issue here (pun intended).

I own, shoot, and like my 1911s. I own, shoot, and like Sigs, including my carry choice, a 220 Carry. Though my 1911s do not jam, FTF, or have other difficulties, I personally prefer the double action for first round for my carry gun (No attacks please. I know others think the opposite). I don't fear carrying cocked and locked, I'm just used to shooting the Sig double action accurately and quickly (practice, practice, practice) and I am confident in the accuracy and reliability of my Sig pistols.
 
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If I was an officer, I would choose the Sig P220R DAK as my duty weapon over a 1911.
 
Good observations.

First of all, I'm not familiar with the "Schwarz safety" --can anyone enlighten me?

As far as an armorer goes, I've tried to have that question answered but I don't want to overstep my bounds by seeming too focused on the firearm issue. I'll just assume it's up to me to get repaired, so I'll probably have a duplicate to rotate in should the first one fail me and require to be sent out.

I've had an excellent experience with my Kimber 1911 Gold Match (which I'm considering selling/trading for a different model), but I also own a P220-ST at present and have had a remarkable experience with it, too.

I had a DAK triggered P220R for a while, but I found the reset to be too long and the DA/SA is more preferable for me, although if I stick with the Sig I may have the "SRT" trigger installed. I was impressed with it when a coworker of mine had it installed on his P220 Combat.

Keep the comments rollin' --you guys are great!
 
First of all, I'm not familiar with the "Schwarz safety" --can anyone enlighten me?
Click to expand...
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/Kimber_SII_FPB.htm

quoted from link:
Kimber Series II Firing Pin Block Safety

Kimber has begun to install what they call the “Series II” firing pin block. (It is essentially a resurrection of the Swartz safety developed for Colt before the Second World War). When you depress the grip safety, a small pin pushes a plunger up in the slide which unblocks the firing pin. I do like it better in one respect than the Series 80 firing pin block of Colt: it is activated by the grip safety, not by the trigger (see diagram), so you get the clean trigger pull sans the click and crunch of the Series 80 guns. You have to be careful when you field strip and reassemble a Series II Kimber because if you hold it by the grip and activate the grip safety, a little pin comes up next to the disconnector and it will stop the slide from coming off or going on, and if you get muscle-bound with it, you could shear the pin and render the gun unable to fire. Also, the FPB mechanism can only be accessed by removing the rear sight should you need to do cleaning or maintenance on it. I’m not terribly wild about this characteristic. (I still believe this is a lawyer-friendly answer in search of a question. I continue to search for documented instances of 1911 pistols going off from being dropped on their muzzles, and I have yet to find one documented instance of an unmodified 1911 in good repair discharging due to a drop on the muzzle from any kind of normal height – if you find one, please send it to me).
 
Sig

I'm very accurate with my 1911's. I'm MUCH MORE accurate with my Sigs. I'd go with the sig.

The great thing is each has a great backup option in the commander/carry options.
 
Both are very good guns. I have had Excellent performance with my Kimbers and while I have shot Sig's I always come back to a 1911.


I'd pick the one I shoot best and for me that would be the Kimber 1911.

If you shoot the Sig better get it.
 
As a police officer and given the above choice I would go with Sig. This is based strictly off of first hand experiences of fellow officers at the same dept. who carry 1911 style guns. After several years of qual'ing at the range during quarterly's and witnessing multitudes of officers with 1911's experience FTF and FTE, and not seeing the same with Sig, I feel that the Sig would indeed be the better choice.

Duty guns need to be reliable first and foremost. The officers I see with 1911's especially those that continuously fail to eject or fail to feed I question their sanity, and then I question my own for actually trusting these guys to back me on hot calls. To better clarify, its not the officer I don't trust, its their choice in firearms.

Do I like the 1911's? Absolutely, I love my SA 1911A1, but it doesn't sit in my holster. Just for the record I carry a Glock 21.
 
I know LEOs that carry both & both are equally happy w/ their weapons. i doubt the LAPD SWAT guys feel vulnerable w/ their Kimbers and I doubt those that carry the P220 feel vulernable either.
Me, I'm not a SIG fan, so I'd go w/ the 1911 -- maybe not a Kimber, but definitely a 1911 ;)
 
If I was an officer, I would choose the Sig P220R DAK as my duty weapon over a 1911.
Click to expand...

AZglock13 +1.

Here's why:

The 220 DAK:
- 7.5lb Double Action only trigger. Intuitive: same thing every time. Point and press. No sweeping the safety. This appeals very strongly to me.

- Weight to capacity ratio: 32oz gun that takes 8 rounds (nine with a chambered round).

- Price: about $850, give or take. :)

The Kimber Tactical Custom II:

- Single Action Only Trigger; I assume it can be set to whatever weight is needed. I would imagine there are some departmental guidelines around minimum trigger weight. Like the DAK, same action every time. Unlike the DAK: sweep that safety. No biggie as long as the shooter trains and is comfortable with this.

- Weight to capacity ratio: 31oz gun that takes a 7 round magazine (according to Kimber's website). Eight rounds with one in the chamber. Nine rounds with 8 round mags and one in the chamber. So: same capacity as the 220 DAK, for the most part.

- Price / MSRP: 1158.00. :eek:



In the context of daily duty, day in and day out: the 220 DAK gets my vote.

That said, if I were buying for personal carry: the Kimber. :D

Good luck; this is a tough one.
 
"Sig, the other isn't an option as a serious gun."

--Tell that to LAPD SWAT and SIS, FBI's HRT, and the USMC's Special Operations Command! :cool:

However, I've heard first hand from a federal agent I know that has worked with FBI HRT that it is not unusual for them to carry their FBI-issue Glocks instead of their Springfield Professional 1911 (I believe that is their designation)'s because their tolerances are so tight they wind up in need of repair too often. That isn't too impressive, but take my second hand knowledge for what it's worth.

Anyone heard feedback from LAPD's widespread use of 1911s on special teams (LAPD SWAT carries the Kimber TLE/II RL 1911 and SIS carry the new Kimber SIS model they keep advertising, if I'm not mistaken)?

For the record, I consider myself equally proficent with both my Kimber Gold Match and my Springfield P220-ST, but I have owned the Kimber much longer and have more trigger time on it. A few weeks can change that, though! :D
 
The Kimber SIS is a regular kimber with a grey finish, a solid trigger, and blocky sights, that can act as a mechanism to work the slide by using only one hand. They still insist on the one piece steel guide rod, and still rely on the custom II package, which putd spring tension on the rear sight, and makes for a crappy trigger pull. The first SIS guns were based on the "classic" series and had no stupid, drop safety, but Kimber has since went back to the Series II platform, and added a titanium firing pin. Ya'll know anything about titanium? It is brittle and tends to break, or shear, before bending. I don't like it a bit.

My +2
 
At this point I've known more than a knowledgable fellow or two refer to Hilton Yam's take on 1911s for duty carry:

http://10-8performance.com/id8.html


"Yea, but so and so carries such and such..."

Lots of deep pocket, high trigger time outfits like those Sigs, by the way. Probably as many as that like the 1911s; though the larger they are the less likely they are, for armory/maintenance related issues. It isn't a given brand of pistol which make those types of folks good, for the record.

If you made me answer, without knowing any more I'd have to say go with the Sig.

Best.
 
I have been carrying a 1911 pistol for a number of years now on duty. Now, you have mentioned Kimber--and to be sure, they're fine guns--but are you limited on the choice of 1911 handgun?

Mine is a Colt Enhanced, and it has never failed me. I carry in a 6280 holster, but have also used the 070, and I feel comfortable with both. When in harness, I have 9 rounds in the sidearm, and 4, 8 round Wilson 47D magazines on the duty belt. That's 41 rounds--I don't feel undergunned at all!
 
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