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Police in Norfolk, Va illegally arrest gun owner

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In cases of public assembly the city and police can make requests of citizens that would normally violate their rights.

Cite please
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OK... Case #1

In 1791 an unpopular tax on whiskey led to large demonstrations and revolt in many cities, especially Pennsylvania. In 1794, President George Washington sent in federal marshalls to arrest the protesters. This failed and in October 1794, Washington mustered 13,000 militia in Harrisburg and marched on western Pennsylvania. President George Washington and Vice-President Alexander Hamilton took personal charge of the troops. They delcared martial law and ended up arresting 20 people. During this time they suspended virtually every liberty in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. A document both had signed a scant 16 years prior. Their actions were upheld by the Sumpreme Court who stated that a citizens rights could be temporarily withheld to support the peace and tranquility. This is the hallmark case that established the power of the government to temporarily without freedoms. It went to state that further statutes needed to be enacted to further limit the time and scope of such actions. Since that time, many many laws have been enacted to define the who, what, where, when, and how of limiting freedoms.

Bottom line, they can do it, they have done, and they will do it again.
 
Sent them a check for membership fee and extra donation after the "Bloomberg gun giveaway" this past May, however, i've yet to receive any kind of confirmation or acknowledgment from those folks.

Yokel, everything is done by volunteers, there's no paid staff. Memberships get processed in batches. Yes, it sometimes takes quite a while to get them out, but they will get it to you. My original membership took about two months to receive.
 
and i will cover any bets about how this plays out. anyone wanna cite a case where a cops been fired for enforcing a law like this?
My BIL is a cop, but has never really been a street cop
He made it to the rank of sergeant while working in the JAC
When his position there either dried up or was no longer satisfying he was put on the street
As a sergeant he was assigned as a supervisor
OK that's the background

Shortly after his reassignment he was called to a local dept store because the manager called in about a man in the store with a gun
It was his understanding that if the store did not allow guns then you were guilty of armed trespass
He arrested the man, cuffed him and put him in the car, even though he had a valid CCW
Another officer showed up that was either braver than the other jr officers with BIL or just more educated and set BIL straight

BIL could not be held liable because he had acted in good faith even though there was no law in place that allowed this man to be arrested

In the case we are discussing there is a law in place for the officers to act on
It is just an illegal law by Virginia constitution

They ain't gettin sued

To BIL's credit he did offer sincere apology to the man he arrested and allowed the man to educate him on that particular law
 
A cop is not a lawyer or a judge. His duty is to arrest you if he feels you are violating the law. It's up to the court to decide your guilt or innocence. Arresting someone is not cause for a lawsuit.
 
A cop is not a lawyer or a judge. His duty is to arrest you if he feels you are violating the law. It's up to the court to decide your guilt or innocence. Arresting someone is not cause for a lawsuit.
At least we agree on this point
Except I would change "feels" to "reasonably believes"
Maybe just semantics, but words mean things
 
Then the Norfolk laws on open carry, etc. don't exist. They were struck down by state preemption.

If a city can't enforce an anti-miscegenation law because it's been voided at the state level or by USC decision, than they can't enforce anti-open carry laws voided by state legislation.

If Norfolk has statutes that are indeed a violation of state law, then those statutes need to be challenged in court. However, this AINT THE CASE THAT'S GOING TO WIN IT. We need to pick our battles.
 
Just because the cops will not likely be sued does not mean the city will not be sued. The city failed to train it's police or take any action to prevent the rights violations.
 
The city of Norfolk is well within it's power to enact a temporary no-gun ordinance at a public gathering.
 
The city of Norfolk is well within it's power to enact a temporary no-gun ordinance at a public gathering.
I must be dense or something. Please explain to me how a city entity can just override state law and the state constitution for a public gathering, on a whim?
 
JESmith wrote:
Since that time, many many laws have been enacted to define the who, what, where, when, and how of limiting freedoms.

OK, so what are the limits on the city? Do not generalize, go dust off a citation. At this point I'd take the ISBN from a basic law text and buy a copy just to read whatever you can dig up.

The city of Norfolk is well within it's power to enact a temporary no-gun ordinance at a public gathering.

Same comment. All of the code of Va., plus case law is available here: http://www.virginia.gov/cmsportal2/government_4096/codes_and_laws.html Find me where it says that a cop on the street can overturn state law on their own whim.

I can't find it but hey, IANAL. Are you? Until you find a citation this is just your hot air. Sorry to be rude but this is becoming pointless blather. Educate us or please be quiet.

Actually hoping for the former...

C.
 
The city of Norfolk is well within it's power to enact a temporary no-gun ordinance at a public gathering.


JESmith, I am starting to think you are a troll. If you understand VA law, it does not have exceptions for what localities can do. It does not allow a city to limit firearms on public property if there is X amount of people around. The law is clearly invalid (nobody disputes this except you) and will be struck down quickly.


I challenge you to show this community where cities can void state law in Virginia.
 
The city of Norfolk is well within it's power to enact a temporary no-gun ordinance at a public gathering.

As longwatch already pointed out...

§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.

(1987, c. 629, § 15.1-29.15; 1988, c. 392; 1997, cc. 550, 587; 2002, c. 484; 2003, c. 943; 2004, cc. 837, 923.)
 
"Cop bashing" = Demanding that police obey the law like everyone else. These cops gleefully violated the law at every turn. I cheerfully "bash" anyone who does that.

Now I like that.
 
Hey Weasel Wait till you get hit with a violation of civil rights under color of authority. Depending on how ignorant and jackbooted the charge can not only lead to dismissal, loss of pension, Jail time and hinged on the seriousness of the offence there is also the federal death penalty.

Officer immune to violating civil rights because he is to ignorant to know his job or the dept not giving him proper training don't float.

It may seem you need to check up on your own education regarding civil rights violation under the color of authority.
 
It may be unfair to some taxpayers, but I hope the arrested open-carrier is awarded a huge monetary sum after a successful civil trial if things played out as VCDL indicates. Not to be uncaring of the plight of the surfs (tongue in cheek), once your net worth gets big enough a lot of these pressing issues become moot. With his huge award, the formerly oppressed individual can buy his own island somewhere and declare him and his wife king and queen. Then, if any JBT’s trespass on his island and start getting all up in his face, the king can simply declare the man to be fish food. Bye bye. It is good to be king. :neener:

It is odd that I want to see the guy well compensated considering I think OC in most of this nation is great in theory but extremely unwise to execute.

In all seriousness, it appears the VCDL has done some good work in the past, and I wish that organization the best of luck in this case.
 
As I've said before I really think this shouldn't be looked as an open carry situation. If a permit holder had his piece accidentally exposed in front of these officers it could have gone the same way because Norfolk tried to invalidate permits from people outside of the festival area. This situation shouldn't come as a surprise considering that Mayor Friam of Norfolk is part of Bloombergs Mayors Against Illegal Guns group.
 
why would you open carry if you have a conceal carry permit ?

I think the implication here is that some people open carry because they wish to do so, simply to not have to conceal the firearm for the sake of simplicity, while others open carry because they desire confrontation or notice, or they have a political agenda.

Yep, exactly. I have a CHP and have always carried concealed. I have been considering open carry during the hot summer months since I am 300 pounds and in the summer it gets extremely uncomfortable after a few hours carrying inside the waist band. Due to my size and shape, a shoulder holster is out of the question because the hand I draw with can barely get a proper grip on the pistol to safely draw it when reaching across by body. Inexpensive shirts in my size long enough to cover a holster worn on the outside of pants are difficult to find. I am considering open carry for comfort. It is legal, so why not. However at the next Norfolk city council meeting where VCDL will be present and addressing the improper actions of the officers and the illegal city ordinances the city created causing these unfortunate incidents I WILL BE making a statement by open carrying in the council chambers which is also legal in Virginia.
 
Game, Set, Match

"Finally, we cannot accept respondents' formulation of the question as whether the availability of money damages is necessary to enforce the Fourth Amendment. For we have here no explicit congressional declaration that persons injured by a federal officer's violation of the Fourth Amendment may not recover money damages from the agents, but must instead be remitted to another remedy, equally effective in the view of Congress. The question is merely whether petitioner, if he can demonstrate an injury consequent upon the violation by federal agents of his Fourth Amendment rights, is entitled to redress his injury through a particular remedial mechanism normally available in the federal courts. Cf. J. I. Case Co. v. Borak, 377 U.S. 426, 433 (1964); Jacobs v. United States, 290 U.S. 13, 16 (1933). "The very essence of civil liberty certainly consists in the right of every individual to claim the protection of the laws, whenever he receives an injury." Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 163 (1803). Having concluded that petitioner's complaint states a cause of action under the Fourth Amendment, supra, at 390-395, we hold that petitioner is entitled to recover money damages for any injuries he has suffered as a result of the agents' violation of the Amendment." BIVENS v. SIX UNKNOWN FED. NARCOTICS AGENTS, 403 U.S. 388 (1971).

The City of Norfolk and the individual officers will pay. GAME


"It is incumbent on the officer executing a search warrant to ensure the search is lawfully authorized and lawfully conducted.6 Because petitioner did not have in his possession a warrant particularly describing the things he intended to seize, proceeding with the search was clearly "unreasonable" under the Fourth Amendment. The Court of Appeals correctly held that the search was unconstitutional...Having concluded that a constitutional violation occurred, we turn to the question whether petitioner is entitled to qualified immunity despite that violation. See Wilson v. Layne, 526 U. S. 603, 609 (1999). The answer depends on whether the right that was transgressed was " 'clearly established' "--that is, "whether it would be clear to a reasonable officer that his conduct was unlawful in the situation he confronted." Saucier v. Katz, 533 U. S. 194, 202 (2001)....Petitioner contends that the search in this case was the product, at worst, of a lack of due care, and that our case law requires more than negligent behavior before depriving an official of qualified immunity. See Malley v. Briggs, 475 U. S. 335, 341 (1986). But as we observed in the companion case to Sheppard, "a warrant may be so facially deficient--i.e., in failing to particularize the place to be searched or the things to be seized--that the executing officers cannot reasonably presume it to be valid." Leon, 468 U. S., at 923. This is such a case. GROH v. RAMIREZ et al., 540 U.S. 551 (2004)


The City of Norfolk and the individual officers will pay. SET

"This distinction is essential to the idea of constitutional government. To deny it or blot it out obliterates the line of demarcation that separates constitutional government from absolutism, free self- government based on the sovereignty of the people from that despotism, whether of the one or the many, which enables the agent of the state to declare and decree that he is the state; to say 'L'Etat, c'est moi.' Of what avail are written constitutions, whose bills of right, for the security of individual liberty, have been written too often with the blood of martyrs shed upon the battle-field and the scaffold, if their limitations and restraints upon power may be overpassed with impunity by the very agencies created and appointed to guard, defend, and enforce them; and that, too, with the sacred authority of law, not only compelling obedience, but entitled to respect? And how else can these principles of individual liberty and right be maintained, if, when violated, the judicial tribunals are forbidden to visit penalties upon individual offenders, who are the instruments of wrong, whenever they interpose the shield of the state? The doctrine is not to be tolerated. The whole frame and scheme of the political institutions of this country, state and federal, protest against it. Their continued existence is not compatible with it. It is the doctrine of absolutism, pure, simple, and naked, and of communism which is its twin, the double progeny of the same evil birth." POINDEXTER v. GREENHOW, 114 U.S. 270 (1885).

The City of Norfolk and the individual officers will pay. Match
 
I'm not entirely comfortable with the white/black overtone in the VCDL piece.

Then you owe it to yourself to read the full background of the "events" at opencarry.org's forums.

This is the same police department in which a black plain clothes officer was shot and killed last year by a white officer in uniform. There was a incident in which officers were called to respond to a disturbance. Several officers responded to the call. The black plain clothes officer had drawn a weapon and was pointing it at the people involved in the incident the officers were responding to. Looks like the white officer saw a black man with a gun pointing it at people. The city has settled with the family of the dead officer for $600,000. After insurance and other money from the state it will be over a million dollars.

I am white and have always believed the DWB (driving while black) claim of discrimination was crap. I am beginning to change my mind. How about "carrying while black" or "packing while black". Why did they have to run a check on a gun possessed by a law abiding person who happened to be black to see if it was stolen?
 
JESmith said
The actual case is that the man in question failed to comply with a lawful order by the police. In cases of public assembly the city and police can make requests of citizens that would normally violate their rights. These are temporary only for the duration of that event. The city is well within its powers to temporary ban alcohol, guns, knives, or even glass containers for that event. The police have the right to ask a citizen to comply AND arrest them if they do not.

This is not a issue of open-carry which I am very much in favor of. It is an issue of knowing when and where. As a repsonsible member of the firearm carrying community, we are supposed to know these things.

IT WAS NOT A LAWFUL ORDER! The cops and city had no authority under state law to make any temporary law for the event regarding firearms!!!!!

The city of Hampton in which I live has a city event every year in September called Bay Days. The city had a law on the books that said you could not carry a firearm at Bay Days. When the state pre-emption invalidated local gun laws the city was notified they had an invalid ordinance on the books and that there was concern there might be problems with people carrying firearms at the event being arrested or forced to leave. At the city council meeting they refused to repeal the law in question even though they were told by the city attorney and the chief of police during the meeting the law was invalid. Even though the law was invalid they thought it was a good law and would not repeal it. The chief of police did the right thing by putting out the word to his officers that the law was invalid and unenforcable and not to bother anyone who was carrying. Maybe he did not want to have to fight any lawsuits either.
 
The chief of police did the right thing by putting out the word to his officers that the law was invalid and unenforcable and not to bother anyone who was carrying. Maybe he did not want to have to fight any lawsuits either.
This is PRECISELY what the FOP did in Cleveland regarding Cleveland's preempted assault weapon ban, which Mayor Frank Jackson has threatened to try to enforce.

Call me crazy, but I doubt that the FOP is trying to save the City of Cleveland from damages and legal fees. CLEARLY, the POLICE union is trying to protect POLICE from the danger of prosecution and tort actions for false arrest, oppression under color of law, etc.
 
The City of Norfolk knows all about the preemption law, so does the PD. They tried an end around to make their Festival area more popular and friendly by excluding people with guns (gangs) from scaring away nongun carriers. They know full well what they did is illegal, but figured no one will seriously challenge their illegal ordinance.
 
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