Police Pump Guns - 870 vs S&W vs ........

Status
Not open for further replies.

Amish_Bill

Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2003
Messages
1,543
Location
atl ga
I'm trying to find details and comparisions of some older Police Shotguns. Specifically I'm curious about how the police pump shotguns from Remington, S&W, and a few makers that I can't quite bring to mind compare.

I recall reading an article that describe the general history of the different makers and their pump guns in regard to police service. Unfortunately, I don't remember where I read it or what it was called... :-(

Can anyone shed some details on this for me?

Thanks.
 
Greeting's Amish_Bill-

Year's ago, I recall seeing some Winchester model
97's in service by a department that was strapped for
cash. More recently, I have seen the Remington 870
with 18.5 or 20" tubes called into active duty. My old
department took it one step further than that; cuz they
adopted and outfitted every patrol vechile with the 1100
from Remington, chosing it over the time-tested 870. I
cannot recall ever seeing a S&W shotgun in police service?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
I have a nickle-plated DSPS (Deerslayer Police Special) from Ithaca. 20 inch, 12 gauge tube, low gloss oil finished walnut furniture.
 
The Remington has become the standard. Mossberg is close on its heels, but I don't think much of Mexican-made guns. The Ithaca gained an undue reputation with the LAPD as being a cop killer. Some LAPD cops apparently didn't realize you had to take your finger off the trigger as you worked the action or it goes boom again. The Ithaca (as much as I love the gun) also had a reputation for cracking buttstocks (though not as bad as the Winchester 97) and having the transfer bar break at the weld. I've had this happen to me, so I know it's a factor. Never heard much about the S&W's although I was under the impression that they were simply a Savage or Stevens shotgun relabeled. Winchester 1200's are fine, but I don't think they are the smoothest of shotguns. I've carried the 870 on duty (Air Force) and never had a problem with it. Considering it's a tool, I would rather wield the 870 than any other gun out there.
 
Since at least the 60s, the standard has been the 870. Nothing else comes close for reliability, durability, and performance. Maybe 90% of the shotguns on duty this minute are 870s.

Second probably is the Ithaca 37.

Third might be the Mossberg, but the two mentioned pretty much have the market sewn up.

The S&W hasn't been seen much since maybe 1980. While it works fine when properly maintained, it didn't hold up under the usual routine of neglect, abuse and lackadaisical maintenance common to depts and agencies.

Mike Irwin will contribute more on these, he trounced me handily with one at wobble not too long ago. His is well maintained.

Older Winchesters, the 97 and 12, were legendary. They disappeared because they required tooled parts, not stamped ones, and the Remington 870 was just as slick,lasted forever, and cost much less to make and buy.
 
Badger,

I didn't know the Ithaca 37s had those problems. How common was this?

Thanks,
Steve
 
Badger,

The S&W 3000 series is more a Model 870 made in by Miroku (I think) in Japan to metric specifications. It's decidedly NOT a Stevens/Savage pump with a different name on it.

Yes, I proved to Dave that the S&W 3000 would fire more than two shots without having a serious failure. :)

I bought my as new back in 1993. The only mark on it was a rub mark aroudn the barrel where the electric lock held it. It was a former police gun and had probably never been fired.
 
Mossberg is close on its heels, but I don't think much of Mexican-made guns.

I'm reasonably certain that they don't think much of you. In any event, there is a lot of stuff that's made in mexico out in the market place, and the fact that mossberg took advantage of manucafturing space in mexico (probably for the gunlock division) is no excuse for rampantly spreading FUD about them.

In any event, the local PD uses 870s and benellis, depending on who you're talking about. they don't get used all that often, as most of the longarms use is when they do L-shaped ambushes on gangsters in cars.
 
Andrew:

I'm not spreading anything about them. Margie at Mossberg told me the following: "Our barrels are cut in Mexico and then they ship them right up to us.... We stamp them [the guns] Made in the US and they are made in the US." Seems a little contradictory, but I'll buy it. So I'll correct myself, the Barrels are made in Mexico, the rest of the gun is made in the US. Good enough for me. I hope this clarifies my position. I'd hate to spread any rumors that weren't confirmed. Looks like they just subcontract that major part but not the rest of the gun. Not that I wouldn't own or sell the guns nor would that make any difference in my buying decision, but the facts are there.

To be sure, I've sold more Mossbergs and Mavericks than I have Remington's. They're very cheap on the used market and go bang when you pull the trigger. I've only had TWO returned to me for malfunctions (no Remingtons to complete the anecdote).
 
I'll take a stab:

From 1900 to the early 1960's the police shotgun market was shared by Winchester and Remington.
Winchester had the larger share, with a few makes like Ithaca, High Standard, and Stevens having at least a "toe hold" in the market.

In those days, pump shotguns were made of forged and milled steel, and as such, were pretty well 'bullet proof". Since the guns were so strong, they were all very reliable, and lasted for years in service.
Coupled with the fact that most departments didn't put guns in patrol cars, and the guns tended to see less use back then, the typical police shotgun lasted just about forever.
This meant that police choice came down to price and the people doing the selection's personal likes and dislikes.

The great "Sea Change" started in 1950 when Remington introduced the Model 870.

This was the first shotgun made with modern production methods. Although Remington used high-speed production methods, the gun still used a forged steel receiver, and robust fabricated parts.
So although the smaller parts weren't milled steel, they were sturdy and foolproof.

The problems started when the other gun makers realized that they could no longer continue to produce the old milled steel "tanks", and designed new guns made with stamped parts, and then, cast aluminum receivers.

The simple fact was, that although the designs looked good on the drawing board, and often stood up to civilian sporting use, they simply couldn't take the abusive use police put them to.

Exacerbated by the fact that police began to put shotguns into patrol cars as "standard equipment", the new stamped and fabricated guns failed to stand the use.

The worst example of a miscalculation was Winchester's loss of the police market they once dominated.

In 1964 Winchester made the notorious decision to change their entire line of firearms to allow cheaper production.
Prior to this, Winchester had a large share of the police market with their 1897 and 1912 Models. Because of the incredible durability and quality, it wasn't unusual to find departments that still used the '97, and the "average" police shotgun was a Model 12.

In 1964 Winchester introduced the new "Super gun" the Model 1200. Like the other new generation of post-war guns, it used stamped and fabricated parts, and an aluminum receiver.

The gun was a disaster in police use.
The gun simply failed to stand up to the treatment, and police departments made clear their dissatisfaction.

Winchester analyzed the failings of the 1200 and redesigned the gun, reissuing it as the Model 1300.

Unfortunately the 1300 also failed in service.
The problem wasn't a specific weakness that could be diagnosed and fixed, but was a systemic problem. The guns simply wasn't durable enough.

Police departments first complained, then "voted with their feet", by refusing to buy anymore Model 1300 guns.
Since that fiasco, no police agency of any size has bought the Winchester Model 1300, and only a few small departments anywhere have used it.
The decision to stick with the 1200/1300 design cost Winchester their majority share of the police market, and through that reputation, Winchester lost their commercial share also. Today Winchester is number three in shotgun production, well behind Mossberg, who is well behind Remington.

In the 1980's Mossberg began to surge in shotgun sales, and made a move on the police market.
Unfortunately their model 500 suffered the same fate as the ill fated Winchester 1200/1300. The Model 500 also failed to stand the treatment.

Mossberg succeeded where Winchester failed, by upgrading and beefing up the 500 into the more sturdy 590 versions.

By this time however, Remington had captured the lion's share of the police market with their remarkable Model 870.
The heavier internal parts, and the steel receiver did stand the abusive police treatment, and has built an unequaled reputation for always working, and durability.

Remington's reputation allowed them to capture an estimated 90% Plus of the police market, and this in turn, helped them to secure the larger part of the commercial sporting market.

The last numbers I saw, indicate that Remington made almost TWICE the number of shotguns that their nearest competitor, Mossberg, made.

Other companies suffer problem similar to Winchester.
S&W decided to branch out into other markets, including an attempt to capture most the police market.
With that in mind, S&W started up an ammunition and holster line, along with their handcuff and other equipment lines.

The first S&W pump gun was the disastrous Model 916, which did serious damage to the companies reputation.

Determining to do a better job next time, S&W imported a Japanese Howa-made gun known as the Model 1000.
Basically a "clone" of the 870, the 1000 did better in the market, and for a time was a "status symbol" among individual police officers who purchased it.

However, the 1000 also fell prey to the street cop durability monster, and failed to stand up.
Shortly thereafter, S&W dumped the ammo, holster, and shotgun lines, so they could "get back to our core business of pistols".

The Howa was passed on to Mossberg, who filed to aggressively market it, and the gun soon sank into oblivion.

Other gun companies also failed the police test. Among them were High Standard, who's innovative Model 10A and 10B bull pup guns failed due to high price and reliability problems.

Savage/Stevens guns failed to sell to the police, and Browning made no effort in the police market at all.

Only Ithaca retained any share at all with their Model 37, but quality control problems, and a lack of adaptability finished them.

By now, Remington's 870 has such a reputation and actual proven performance, it's unlikely any competitor will shake their dominance of the market, at least as long as police continue to use pump shotguns.
Remington's design team's genius has given the company a market share and dominance Glock and other gun companies can only marvel at.

Although there are the usual disputes as to shotgun brands among civilian owners, there is no doubt about who who makes the most durable and reliable gun. The fact that you have to look long and hard to find a law enforcement agency that DOESN'T use the 870, tells the tale.

The police did 'vote with their feet" and it wasn't because they liked the way the Remington salesmen smiled.

All this points up the keys to the firearms market:
1. Design a sturdy, reliable, no-nonsense, firearm.
2 Insure the production quality make good use of the design.

Most companies either came up with a substandard design, or failed to obtain and maintain quality production.
Those that did neither succeeded.

The results are there to be seen.
High Standard is a memory, Savage/Stevens is a never-was, and Ithaca
pretty well sank without a ripple.
S&W makes nice pistols.
Mossberg is selling a few guns to departments based on their cheaper pricing.
Remington skips to the bank.
 
My Dept. had High Standard riot guns until the 70s. The last of them were sold along with most other surplus weapons in 92 when we converted over to 9mm autos as duty pistols. I have one I bought from the dealer we traded with. It has a single action bar that broke. I've never had it repaired. They predated serial numbers, the only number on mine is ______ Police Dept. No. 07. We also had some old pumps that had a hammer (not Win Model 97s) that came from the Federal Bureau of Prisons by their markings.

All Remington 870s now.

Jeff
 
A couple small things about 870s....

With about 8 million made, the 870 is the most popular civilian firearm ever. Of that 8 million, 7.99 million are probably still in use.

Darn near every firearms instructor I know has at least one.

A large number of LEOs who own shotguns own 870s. Many LEOs pick the 870s for HD, for the same reasons we do.Reliability, durability and effectiveness. And if their depts and agencies use the 870, training at work equals training at home, and vice versa.

When shooting trap and skeet, I see a number of old 870s in use, many from the 50s and still first choices. Some are on their third generation of owner in the same family.

The "too worn to use" point seems to be around 250K rounds. Will advise when it happens.

Outside of the firing pin spring I wrote about, the TB here is closing in on 12K glitchless rounds. Wear seems confined to the blue on the mag tube. Yes, it's getting nicely slick to pump.

My oldest 870, with its 8-10K rounds behind it, locks up like new. I'd bet my life on it, which is why it's part of my homeowner's insurance.

Among currently produced shotguns, there's the 870, then there's everything else.

Now descending from pulpit...
 
Last edited:
dfarriswheel - great write up !

dfarisswheel, Dave , Jeff...everyone I appreciate the input.

Ok I deleted my earlier post, because I was waiting for some answers that did appear later,plus I cannot find some books and materials...arrggh.

Winchester 1500. I cannot for the life of me remember that much about the gun. Was this an "improvement" that also failed? Another case of too little -too late , nice try try but no cigar? Serious brain fade - help?

[pssst , anyone know if the Red Win. book with all guns made , diagrams, part nos. dates of Mfg., and parts avail/disc,... is still offered by Win. ? Bunch of my gun references - walked off - probably need to ask Harley - right?]
 
Trapper:

Well that is what remembered. I was asked by a 3rd party about a Win 1500, in the settling of an estate of a former LEO . I was asked if this was a LEO model, and I replied no. TTBOMK I replied with pretty much with what has been discussed in this thread thus far.

Unless some small town dept. or an individual used a personal 1500 for duty, which I doubt very seriously. Third party question , from out of town deal.

Naturally without my references , and the question still buzzing around my brain, now I'm curious. I'm familar with the 1400, in my brain the 1500 was supposed to be an improved totally re-design semi...that didn't fly...after the 1400.

Older I get the more I realize I don't know...all the new stuff coming out just adds to the mix...:p
 
Continuing with the post-1964 marketing tactic of studying the market, spending millions developing a new super-gun, and introducing it with tremendous fanfare, the Winchester company took a good long look, braced themselves, took a good running start, and jumped directly into the sewer with the Model 1500 XTR auto shotgun.

The 1500 was only made from 1978 to 1982, and like the ill-fated 1200, was a major mistake.

The XTR was a commercial-only gun, not being around long enough to be offered with a short barrel.
 
Ill fated..................

I don't know where to start...... First the 1500 is an auto loader, a Smith 1000 is an autoloader, the Smith 3000 was the pump. XTR was an upgraded appearance package including....real Black Walnut wood, HAND cut checkering, deep rich blueing and a high gloss finish. Quality was in fact their demise...........too much quality, they couldn't compete offering the hand cut checkering and nice wood/finish when you could buy the 870/1100's for less at Wal-Mart, Remington was the first big name to sell out to Wal-Mart. While the Winchester 1200/1300/1400/1500 has an aluminum receiver the bolt still rides on spring steel rails that take all the wear. The only downfall is the aluminum shows mishandling marks easier. Winchester had to do something to cut mfg costs will all of Remingtons cheap stuff. Remember back before the 870/1100 became popular Winchester's premium shotguns were the Model 12 pump and the Supe-X1 Auto......easily their equal, the 1200 and 1400 were their cheap guns, some didn't even use walnut wood like the 870/1100 express.
Police use is the same story.........cheaper, budget concerns. Most police shotguns get fired only occasionally, the rest of the time or located under the seat or on the cruiser hump getting coffee and donut icing spilled on them daily. The only W1200/1300/1400/1500 guns I've ever seen fail were all just dirty. Iv'e seen many 1100's fail on the skeet range on the second shot, never a SuperX. Trap guns don't tell much of a story as they are normally fired one round at a time, I don't know many shooters shooting trap doubles with an 870, there are a few.
I will concede the 870 is a super, bulletproof shotgun....no doubt. The 1100........no thanx, I'll use one of my old junk 1400's. Buy the way I'll take all the 1300xtr and 1500xtr shotguns at Remington express prices, e-mail me.

reddog
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top