Police Rethink 'Always Armed' Policy

[Ryder]

Guns have been demonized to such an extent that many perceive any gun holder not wearing a uniform to be a badguy. I don't share that midset so it's hard for me to sypathize.

Lots of us use guns for recreation but many believe guns are only useful for shooting people. Easy for me to see how that can be a problem.

 

[c_yeager]

From the article posted. If you will remember, the 'off duty' cop was not a cop, but a security guard, who was engaged in some pretty odd behavior at the time. The Keystone, er, Kampus Kop that killed him was not held responsible at all. Funny how the cops will turn even something like this to their political advantage.

Its amusing that you accuse someone else of diseminating bad information in the very same paragraph in which you clearly demonstrate a poor command of the actual facts involved.

The "security guard" was an ON-duty University police officer, a sworn officer. The shooter was city of Orlando police officer. You might want to consider checking your own facts before you go on a tirade about the accuracy of others.

 

[Jim K]

One aspect of the problem that is not often mentioned is what I call the "who, me?" reaction.

In DC a few years ago, a plain clothes officer making an arrest was holding his gun on a suspect. A uniformed officer came on the scene and, for whatever reason, did not recognize the holder of a gun as an officer. The uniformed officer yelled, "Police, drop the gun!" The plain clothes cop just stood there, making no response. The uniformed cop yelled again, same thing. This time, the plain clothes officer turned toward the uniformed cop and appeared to raise his gun. The uniformed officer shot and fatally wounded the other cop.

In the hospital, before the plain clothes cop died, he explained that he had seen the uniform and heard the call to drop the gun but, since he was a cop, and the gun was issue, he didn't think the other officer meant HIM. He assumed (yep, I know) that the uniformed officer was intercepting another bad guy, outside his range of vision. At the second call, he turned to see who the uniform was yelling at and to cover the other guy if necessary.

I wonder how often that kind of thing happens.

Jim

 

[jason10mm]

whew, makes me glad I have my CCW badge on me at ALL times!!!!

Actually, a very careful analysis of the statistics would be interesting, especially any race bias between the shooter and the victim. I would argue that an off-duty/plainclothes cop would engage in much more aggressive anti-criminal behavior than your typical CCW (in terms of who they would go after, how far they would pursue, and trying to arrest BGs instead of just driving them away) so they probably have a MUCH greater chance of encountering passing by/responding uniformed LEOs while still engaged with the BG.

 

[Ravenslair]

...More police are killed by asteroids....

It is a good thing I was not drinking something when I read that. It would have exited my nose and impacted my keyboard at high velocity.

 

[Bad Words]

Maybe departments should try teaching the cops to always know their target...

 

[twency]

Maybe departments should try teaching the cops to always know their target...

Sounds like a good idea, but I think it fails to recognize the complexities which an officer encounters in arriving at an apparently active crime scene. Consider a hypothetical scenario:

Officer arrives on scene, responding to 911 call saying that a madman is holding someone at gunpoint. As he cautiously approaches from the side (he doesn't want to startle the guy with the gun from behind, but he'd be foolish to approach from the direction where the gun is pointed), he sees a guy pointing a gun at a seemingly innocent, unarmed person sitting on the ground. The guy with the gun is shouting something, but the officer can't clearly understand him. (There's some background noise, and the shouting gun-holder is somewhat incoherent because he's upset.) The officer needs to gain control of the situation, and make sure the only person on the scene with a gun out is himself, plus any uniformed backup who might show up. He shouts at the guy with the gun to put it down. The guy with the gun hasn't realized the officer has arrived, he turns slightly out of surprise, and is shot once through the heart by the officer, who saw the guy with the gun turning it on him.

Who's at fault?

The officer knew his target. There was a random guy he didn't know pointing a gun at an unarmed person, and then it looked like the gunman was starting to point his gun at the officer.

The gunman had stopped a crime in progress. His wife was being threatened by a guy with a knife. He pulled his gun. He would've shot the guy with the knife, but the guy dropped the knife as our hero reached for his gun (it's now out of sight behind him) and started blubbering like a baby. Guy with a gun hesitated at first, and then didn't think he'd be justified any more in shooting the guy who used to have a knife, once he was sitting on the ground pleading for his life. He didn't trust this guy who just assaulted his wife, so he was still covering the guy on the ground. He'd had a huge adrenaline rush from being in fear for his wife's life. He had tunnel vision, and didn't see or hear the officer arrive on the scene at first. When he suddenly realized that someone was shouting at him to put the gun down, he was startled, and started to turn toward the sound.

A very sad situation for everyone involved. The only partial winner is knife guy, who deserved to be shot for what he was trying to do. Hopefully he'll spend some time in prison, but he'll come out of it alive. Our hero, who may very well have saved his wife's life, is dead. The officer will discover to his horror that he shot a well-intentioned person who was just trying to protect an innocent person. The gunman's wife just saw her husband shot dead in front of her. To one degree or another, everyone we care about loses in this scenario.

Sure, this situation may sound contrived, but it's just one example of the countless ways in which an officer might be justified in shooting someone who really didn't deserve to get shot. To answer my question from above, fault lies with the guy with the knife, who's initial violence started the sequence of events which led to the death of our hero, the guy with the gun.

I am not a lawyer, LEO, or in any other profession of relevance to this thread. I have no personal axe to grind in this discussion, other than having a license to carry. I just don't think there are any simple, one-size-fits-all solutions to the problem being discussed.
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-twency

(Incidentally, I am not using the term "our hero" sarcastically. A person who protects his or her family from harm is indeed a hero. I simply used the term to help distinguish the participants, and to indicate that even heros can get dead, sometimes for reasons that don't seem fair or right.)

 

[Geno]

Point taken, but you left out one action in this scenario...the shouting.

One of the first points made by the county S.W.A.T. director who taught my CCW class was to "Yell and make as much noise to be noticed as you can. Scream like heck because you want witnesses. And, the bad guys don't scream and call police attention to themselves...good people do".

The only conflict I see is ununiformed police and civilians carrying. As easy as it is to purchase genuine badges, although I personally would NEVER trust that someone out-of-uniform is truly a cop. That presents a problem. Also, police, like most humans need a mental or emotional break. They also need 24-hours per day self-defense from vindictive people. They should carry, but they should NOT, NOT get involved.

I was witness to one very unfortunate and STUPID off-duty cop pulling over a suspected drunk driver, caused an accident in doing so, then brandished the person he pulled over. The person blew a .000000000000000000000000000000% alcohol. No, no drugs either. Simple case of head-up arse, egotistical, adrenilin-junkie, jackarse who need not carry ever again. I know the person he pulled over. Now the department is facing a lawsuit, and I will probably be called in as a witness, forcing me to take off time from my job.

The problems as I see it is that if any cop who caused an accident involving ME, then brandishes ME? I'd be up on charges for shooting his arse, becuase I don't intend to wait to see if the dork in bluejeans, t-shirt and cap is truly a cop.

For my part, sure, cops should carry off-duty--SAME AS I CAN--CONCEALED! They shouldn't need a CCW, that's stupid. They also should NOT get involved...call a cop. They life they save might be their own.

Just my thoughts.

Doc2005

Edited to add:

Lastnight I posted a thread that is relevant to this conversation (in "Legal and Political") after viewing the evening news, regarding an off-duty officer being mugged--sidearm, badge and ID stolen. I guess there are more risks than simply shootings and misidentification by cops. Perhaps we should add the misidentification by bad guys too?

 

[Janitor]

We as non-LEOs face the same danger when we carry concealed.

Probably not an issue really. Sure - keep an eye out, but think about it. If the numbers on LEOs is statisticly insignificant, how many (even per capita) CCW holders might get in trouble? Keep in mind that LEOs do zany things like run towards the gunfire.

"Yell and make as much noise to be noticed as you can. Scream like heck because you want witnesses. And, the bad guys don't scream and call police attention to themselves...good people do".

Absatively. Same instructions in the CCW class I was in.
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