Police State USA

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I'm sorry but wouldn't these checkpoints that are actually car searches violate the fourth amendment?? Personally, I think the DUI, Seatbelt, License and insurance checks are also a violation. Happened to me years ago outside of DC, and I was not happy about it at all. But, when an FBI agent is pointing an AR at you it becomes moot. *Note this was during the beltway "sniper" time and I was driving a "white van" at the time.:cuss:
 
Alligator,
While they would appear to violate the Constitution, to mere peons such as you, I, and Ron Paul, many on this forum would say that since the supreme court says they are ok that indeed they must be!:barf:
 
paco,
I said that the supreme court said that arbitray roadblocks are NOT constitutional. The only checkpoints that are legal in this country are for DUI where every driver is checked, or if there is an escaped fugitive and the LEO has reason to believe (probable cause challengable in court) that the fugitive will be taking that particular route.

Whom ever was speaking about the "bottle neck".... That would technically be unconstitutional however it takes someone to speak out in order for the cours to take notice. Because so many people in this country believe something like that is OK, they will not speak out. Which is how the government is slowing erroding our freedoms.
 
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.

Well, I'm gonna side with with Ron Paul on this one.

The only checkpoints that are legal in this country are for DUI where every driver is checked,

Legal? Ok, if you totally disregard the fourth ammendment.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

I never went to college, but I got decent grades in high school english.

What does that paragraph mean to you?
 
Let me put it this way. Pulling everyone over because someone somewhere might be drinking and driving is not reasonable if you are presumed innocent until found guilty. Where is the probable cause, reasonable suspicion etc?

Talk about your slippery slopes. Where does it end? If that is ok because it might stop a dwi driver, then certainly kicking in your door is ok because you MIGHT have drugs and you know if it saves just one life...


The point I am trying to make is that it is better to have a drunk driver go free than to have a government that is allowed to violate your rights.

It is the lesser of evils, a drunk driver might kill someone, or a whole family. Yes, that would be a terrible thing. Tyrannical governments have killed hundreds of millions(babies and families too) in the last century alone.


Personally, I'll take less dui checkpoints and risk the drunk drivers.
 
IMHO I believe checkpoints are unconstituional.
I love the courts logic, in that ......if we violate Rights in a systematic way (ie stop every fifth car) this makes it better.
 
Whom ever was speaking about the "bottle neck".... That would technically be unconstitutional however it takes someone to speak out in order for the cours to take notice. Because so many people in this country believe something like that is OK, they will not speak out. Which is how the government is slowing erroding our freedoms.

That tis I who spoke of such vilolation. Good point. I would be happy to challenge this to prolong the erosion of our rights, but I don't think I will win against a government who has 1,000,000,000,000 times the money I have.
 
The Terrorist are winning more and more each day and thats because they haven't even carried out their attacks yet.

Glad I live way down here in South Texas. I may be surrounded by some Illegals but they mind their own business and mind mine and I can pretty much do what I want and go where I want and no one gives a crap.
 
And for some irony- I read a photo essay by the Photojournalist David Duncan- he was relating his travels in the Soviet Union circa 1958 or so.
One of the photos that burned it's way into my memory was a shot of a metal tray of pocketknives, scissors, nail files, etc. They had been confiscated from the Commie working class folk who went to see their "committee" at work. A big deal was made about how the commie government did not trust it's own people. Every time I go thru a metal detector I see that image in my head.
 
legitimate ???

Personally, I want the government to try to stop terrorists from killing Americans, and not just make the appearance of doing something. And yes, during times of crisis, such as during the Civil War and during WWII, there were restrictions on freedoms in the name of national security. Our freedoms do not mean we must allow ourselves to be destroyed or allow others to take away all of our rights through violence and intimidation. The line is a hard one to define but railing against legitimate security precautions is not responsible criticism.

Nonsense:fire:
 
The restriction of freedoms during the War of Northern Aggression (Civil War to you Yankees) never actually ended did it?
It established that the POTUS can ride roughshod over the elected officials and collective wills of the various states. He also can threaten the SCOTUS with imprisonment and institute military governorship if things seem to not be going his way (the elected government of Missouri was replaced by a military governor while secession was just being debated).
Not exactly the kind of example that anyone should draw to.

Jefferson
 
paco,

I didn't say that I agreed with the ruling that DUI checkpoints were legal. I was only using that to illustrate my larger point which was that the supreme court has ruled that checkpoints for general law inforcement purposes is illegal. Therefore, what the gov. is doing in DC has been deemed unconstitutional by the supreme court.
Now, like I said earlier. Unless the people in DC say something about it, or the media nothing will be done. However, the media will not say anything because they are so socialist they truly think that a police state is a safe state.
 
George29..you forgot...

On April 14, 1988, at 8pm, a car bomb exploded in front of the USO Club in Naples, Italy. The explosion resulted in the death of five people, including a U.S. servicewoman. Additionally, fifteen people were injured, including four U.S. servicemen. Junzo Okudaira, a Japanese Red Army (JRA) member, was indicted in the United States on April 9, 1993 for the Naples bombing. Okudaira is also a suspect in the June 1987 car bombing and mortar attack against the U.S. Embassy in Rome.

The "U.S. servicewoman" killed worked with my wife. My wife was the duty officer at her command the night of the bombing and had to send a person to identify the body.

migoi
 
Americans wishing to visit the U.S. Capitol must, for example, pass through several checkpoints and submit to police inspection of their cars and persons.
I'm pleased that I live as far west of that place as possible yet still on the NA continent.
 
Originally posted by Vito:
In the name of freedom would you prefer the government to ignore real threats? In any civilized society there is a balance between individual freedom and public safety and security. That does not mean we just accept whatever actions government officials want to take, but it also does not mean we chastise the government for taking responsible steps to insure public safety. Personally, I want the government to try to stop terrorists from killing Americans, and not just make the appearance of doing something. And yes, during times of crisis, such as during the Civil War and during WWII, there were restrictions on freedoms in the name of national security. Our freedoms do not mean we must allow ourselves to be destroyed or allow others to take away all of our rights through violence and intimidation. The line is a hard one to define but railing against legitimate security precautions is not responsible criticism.

So then it is ok for the government to disarm its citizens in a disaster or other crisis? Like Katrina? How about after 9/11?

Only the police and military need guns after a crisis. They will protect you. You have to be reasonable. This is reasonable. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by jselvy:
The restriction of freedoms during the War of Northern Aggression (Civil War to you Yankees) never actually ended did it?
It established that the POTUS can ride roughshod over the elected officials and collective wills of the various states. He also can threaten the SCOTUS with imprisonment and institute military governorship if things seem to not be going his way (the elected government of Missouri was replaced by a military governor while secession was just being debated).
Not exactly the kind of example that anyone should draw to.

Jefferson

Nope. The same problems we had during the war where the South showed its racist bias for the first time (the Civil War to you Confederates) are still alive today it seems. I suspect that we will evetually lose our rights if we continue electing these politicians.

Hopefully Ron Paul will be the next president and we will not need to go through metal detectors to visit the nations capital.
 
The terrorists are not winning, our government that is using them for their scapegoats while said government plunders your rights, is winning. Our government has not been representing us for quite some time, they are representing themselves and that of the elite corporate magnates for over a decade now. Terrorism is just a convenient muse.

I won't go into all my tinhattery here about 9/11, but there are way too many questions left unanswered. Boiling metal in the basement, from explosions on the 70-80th floor level. Umm, only thermite does that folks. Controlled collapse destruction, entire building neatly piled in the basement. Marked center collapse of controlled demolition evidenced on tape as WTC7 collapses from a fire, from debris off the towers, while markedly more damaged buildings remain standing? Sure, call me crazy, I'm fine with it. But to think our government is not capable or adequately organized is simply denial. Like Hitler said, the bigger the lie, the more they'll believe it.

The CIA was founded and modelled from the Nazi SS, and the same type of incidents are occurring to dupe the people into believing some incredibly large lies. And it appears to be working quite well don't you think? I do.
 
Jeepmor, someone is going to pull his head out of the sand and tell you to go buy more tinfoil in...5...4...3...2...1...

I'd rather br paranoid and be wrong than be in denial and be wrong.
 
Jeepmor, have you seen the movie, "Bug," yet? You'll love it.

Ashley Judd is looking mighty good, too.

K
 
Mr. Paul makes excellent points and I generally agree with the thrust of his comments, especially regarding the propensity of governments to use security and risk-reduction as a rationale to expand control. If the Right is using the threat of terrorism as its rationale, so the Left will use fears about global warming, etc. as its rationale. But, as long as we still hold the ability to vote these characters in or out of office, we share the blame by giving the perception of demanding to live a risk-free, all-secure life. Or, we acquiesce by apathy.

On the other hand, even strict libertarians recognize that one of the legitimate functions of government is to provide a measure of security for its citizens against foreign and domestic threats to life and property. The key is a *measured* response to a *realistic* threat assessment--for the purpose of providing real security, not increasing government power. For example, IMO, pulling over an erratic or reckless driver is a legitimate, measured response to the real threat of a drunk driver, but DUI checkpoints are not.

Airport security began in the 60's and 70's with the appearance of skyjackers. Some were political and wanted to be flown to Cuba (or elsewhere), and some were extortion. Then it became more violent and related to the conflict in the Middle East. Airplanes were being blown up. Now, suicide tactics have made the threat even more deadly. No longer can we assume that a person carrying his own luggage on board doesn't have a bomb.

Was government, in the name of individual liberty, supposed to ignore this threat? Without searches of persons and baggage, would the skyjackings and bombings have increased or decreased? Is the freedom to get on an airplane without having your person or affects searched meaningful if you avoid putting yourself or your loved ones on a plane because of the very real risk of death by criminal activity?

There has always been a compromise between liberty and security--which varies with the situation. IF we lived in a world where individuals and nations respected the rights of others, the issue would be moot, wouldn't it? But, that's not the world we live in. The answer isn't a police state, but a measured response to the real threats and real criminals.

K
 
"The CIA was founded and modelled from the Nazi SS"

Sorry, but it was the OSS.

"In 1942, President Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed William Donovan as head of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), an organization that was given the responsible for espionage and for helping the resistance movement in Europe. He was helped in this by William Stephenson and Britain's MI6 chief, Stewart Menzies.

Donovan was given the rank of major general and during the Second World War he built up a team of 16,000 agents working behind enemy lines. The growth of the OSS brought conflict with John Edgar Hoover who saw it as a rival to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. He persuaded President Harry S. Truman that the OSS in peacetime would be an "American Gestapo".

As soon as the Second World War ended Truman ordered the OSS to be closed down leaving a small intelligence organization, the Strategic Services Unit (SSU) in the War Department. However, the OSS provided a model for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) that was established in September 1947. Its role was to evaluate intelligence reports and coordinate the intelligence activities of the various government departments in the interest of national security."
 
And as far as Wild Bill Donovan goes, he didn't have the makings of an SS admirer.

"The office was under the jurisdiction of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and was headed by William A. "Wild Bill" Donovan. William Donovan, a Columbia University classmate of President Roosevelt, was a former U.S. Army officer and a Medal of Honor winner for actions during World War I."

John
 
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