Poll: SCAR or ACR?

[nwilliams]

SCAR, I love mine! Yes it was very expensive and I could have got a very nice AR for the price I paid for my SCAR. However I already have a very nice Daniel Defense AR so my decision to buy a SCAR was based on the desire to have one in the collection as opposed to whether or not it would replace my AR or any other gun in my collection.

I would still love to own an ACR someday as well and I probably will. The problem with the ACR is that if I were going to own one the only version I would want is the "enhanced" version. While I think the ACR is fantastic concept I just can't bring myself to spend more than $1,500 on even the enhanced version. While the SCAR is expensive and probably more expensive than it needs to be, I am willing to spend over $2k on one because it is made by FN and because it has been extensively tested and accepted by the military, the ACR is currently still basically just a cool concept gun.

It was probably a stupid financial decision for me to buy a SCAR, especially considering I had to put about a third of it on my credit card. All the same I had recently sold a few guns on GB and made a bit of a profit from them and I had a good bit on account at the shop from having to return a defective gun so it seemed like the right time to buy one if ever. The point is that there was a standard version ACR sitting on the rack next to the SCAR and it was only about $100 less than the SCAR. However as much as I debated whether to take the SCAR plunge or not seeing the ACR sitting up there for almost the same price really helped sell me on the SCAR. It was like seeing a brand new BMW 135i sitting next to a brand new Chrysler Sebring on the lot for almost the same price, OK that might not be the fairest comparison but that doesn't defeat my point.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

You can roll with the SCAR-H (17S) and get a 7.62mm carbine with a published weight of only 8 pounds--several ounces less than any version of the ACR--and has a lower MSRP.

the .308 SCAR is far more money than the ACR

I was more interested in the ACR before it was taken over by Remington and Bushmaster.

remington only supplied the ACR's "self lubricating" finish. nothing more.

I haven't seen or handled either one so I'm not commenting, but man 'o man it seems like there's nothing but hate for the Bushmaster. Apparently their products suck.

i've never heard people hating on Bushmaster until this thread lol. i've fired one before and it was exceptionally accurate. i don't think they'd be one of, if not the top AR producers if they sucked.

 

[migkillertwo]

I'm partial to the SCAR because i've only handled a SCAR and was blown away by the weight compared to my own AR

 

[MTMilitiaman]

http://trophys.dealerease.net/catalog/product.asp?pid=73391&ret_id=806356
"Your Price $2,496.78"

http://www.gunforall.com/shopcart/mcartfree/product.asp?intProdID=162606
"Base Price: $2,406.20"

That's just a quick Google Search. I am sure an FFL fee would probably apply and as always "prices are subject to change," usually up. But compared to the ACR:

http://www.google.com/products/cata...og_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCoQ8wIwAw#
"$2,119 new," that's for the basic configuration, without the folding stock that comes standard on the SCAR.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...og_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCcQ8wIwAg#
"$2,422 new," this is the enhanced model with the same features that come standard on the SCAR. Assuming the same price fluctuations and FFL fees apply, prices look about the same with comparable features.

It looks like the published weight of the ACR went down. Even weighing a pound more, I think the company backing the SCAR, its better reach and punch, and more established track record will still yield it more fans. The SCAR 17S is actually in a unique position in that it does something very few other rifles do. There are plenty of pretty modular and adaptive 5.56/6.8 mm carbines out there. The list of lightweight modular 7.62mm carbines is much smaller.

 

[Girodin]

i've never heard people hating on Bushmaster until this thread lol. i've fired one before and it was exceptionally accurate. i don't think they'd be one of, if not the top AR producers if they sucked.

I hope by top producer of ARs you are talking about numbers because if you are talking quality a Bushmaster isn't even in contention to be anywhere on the podium nor an honorable mention.

The SCAR vs the ACR seems like a total no brainer to me at this point. Remington managed to turn the ACR into a FAIL. Its really too bad it had the potential to make a huge splash but didn't, not even close.

I looked at a SCAR a while ago but ultimately passed. Maybe one day but it just didn't offer enough of a real advantage over my Noveske to justify the money right now. I must admit that the SCAR 17S looks very promising. I think it stacks up much more favorably in terms of offering real world advantages versus the competition at .308. Basically what was said above. The scar will become more attractive to me as there becomes more available to take advantage of the barrel modularity. Particularly if barrels don't cost as much as an upper (like the XCR. Oh and why do they only offer 1:9 twist barrels). Good support there would make the SCAR way more interesting IMHO.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

I hope by top producer of ARs you are talking about numbers because if you are talking quality a Bushmaster isn't even in contention to be anywhere on the podium nor an honorable mention.

where is all this bushmaster quality issue stuff coming from lol? not saying you guys are wrong, just curious. a relative of mine just bought that one i fired, and it was great. flawless function, and very accurate.

never really researched much on bushmaster customer reviews, so i'm no expert on the subject, but i don't recall seeing many negative reviews lol

(their new carbon frame AR with the red dot sight i looked at the other day struck me as being a piece of crap, but that's the only one i didn't like)

 

[twestbrook10]

I'm with you. Where's all this bushmaster bashing coming from? Their rifles are very good.

 

[nwilliams]

I'm with you. Where's all this bushmaster bashing coming from? Their rifles are very good.

While Bushmaster makes a decent entry level AR, it's very difficult to compare a Bushmaster AR to the AR's built by Colt, LMT, Noveske, Daniel Defense, BCM or even S&W. I know it sounds snobbish and I hate to say it but that's the truth and that's the reason why some people are willing to spend a little more money to own an AR made by one of those companies as opposed to say a Bushmaster, DPMS or Olympic made AR.

I owned a Bushmaster M4 Patrolman for several years and it worked flawlessly. However there is also a reason why I decided to sell my Bushy and buy a Daniel Defense M4XV instead. While I never had any issues with my Bushmaster it really does feel like I upgraded from an apartment to a house after I purchased my DD.

If you want a more detailed explanation as to why some people prefer certain AR makers over others they you can always look at "the chart", it's a good source of information. http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

^RRA makes awesome AR's too

the main thing daniel defense has going for it is the super light quad rail. it's build quality, although very nice, is not on par with RRA, which cost less.

DD offering a larry vickers signature model, although great advertising for them, does not impress me. LAV is a business man that leases his name to those that fatten his wallet (and subsequently his stomach )

 

[uspJ]

SCAR, based on FN quality

This.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I think the Bushmaster bashing comes from obsession with "The chart" and the fact that they've been around a while. I own one complete Bushmaster and one complete upper from them, and the quality is very good. HOWEVER, Bushmaster's quality and standards have largely been frozen in time for 10 years or more, while many newer entrants, as well as equally old Armalite, have upgraded their specifications in many ways to compare with "the chart" and get sales.

Today, Bushmaster makes a pretty good AR, but here are some cost-cutting measures that aren't so great:
-carrier key staking is inconsistent and often poor
-commercial spec buffer tubes on telestock models
-color and finish is to military standards but not as clean and consistent as many civilian competitors
-barrel steel is apparently just 4150, which while an upgrade over 4140 is not necessarily the military spec unless BM is buying it to military standards, which they aren't clearly saying.

Finally, I think many of us are a bit sad that they got gobbled up by Cerberus' "Freedom Group" which seems to follow the usual pattern of large investment companies taking over smaller established niche companies. And the absurd pricing of the ACR just plain ticked off a lot of people, me included.

In the late 90's, Bushmaster was definitely one of the best, along with Colt and Armalite. But the only other significant assemblers were Olympic and Hesse/Vulcan - enough said. It's somewhat like when the Japanese cars started coming into the US market in the 1970's - US quality didn't necessarily dive, but the standard was suddenly higher.

Oh, FWIW, RRA is perhaps the most over-hyped AR assembler out there. They sure have gotten millions of miles out of that much-hyped DEA contract.

 

[ny32182]

To clarify a point about the XCR, barrels do not cost as much as an upper... the entire "conversion kit" including a barrel, bolt, and case deflector is about $450; an upper minus barrel is about 900. XCR is still the only one of the three building to actually use the modular capability. They also offer 1:7 twist on the SBR 5.56 barrels; not sure if that twist is yet available on the longer barrels.

 

[ny32182]

As far as Bushmaster, I owned two and can honestly say I shot them more than any other ARs I've owned (that is not "a lot", but more than my others). I never had a problem to speak of and the 20" HBAR was/is the most accurate chrome lined AR I've ever personally seen. I sold them because I am at times a slave to the chart.

ACR is a different product obviously, but Bushmaster's "second tier" AR rep will affect the way it is percieved. If you changed nothing other than the text on the side from "Bushmaster" to "Colt" (for instance) many people in this thread would be singing a different tune.

 

[Z-Michigan]

If you changed nothing other than the text on the side from "Bushmaster" to "Colt" (for instance) many people in this thread would be singing a different tune.

And if the same 9lb toy said any of BCM, DD, LWRC or LMT, people would be jumping over each other to pay $3000 for it... those are good brands, of course, but people often put brand name over real quality and features.

 

[Carter]

To clarify a point about the XCR, barrels do not cost as much as an upper... the entire "conversion kit" including a barrel, bolt, and case deflector is about $450; an upper minus barrel is about 900. XCR is still the only one of the three building to actually use the modular capability. They also offer 1:7 twist on the SBR 5.56 barrels; not sure if that twist is yet available on the longer barrels.

Right now they do not. Apparently there are older barrels floating around out there in different twist rates. Being such a small company they struggle to keep up with demand and still produce new products (different conversion kits and their ever allusive .308 model). Its a good company with a good product. They are just very short handed compared to FN. Between the XCR and the SCAR I'd probably take the SCAR, but I'd take the XCR over the ACR any day.

 

[Maverick223]

...it seems like there's nothing but hate for the Bushmaster. Apparently their products suck.

Not in my experience (in fact one of my favorite rifles was made by them), but the ACR is a dud IMO. I voted for the SCAR, but I would prefer the RobArms XCR over either.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

Not in my experience (in fact one of my favorite rifles was made by them), but the ACR is a dud IMO. I voted for the SCAR, but I would prefer the RobArms XCR over either.

you'd prefer this over the FN SCAR?

(the 60's called-they want their buttstock back)

 

[ny32182]

I will say this about the XCR stock, it may not be 8-way adjustable, but it does lock up way more solidly than a SCAR stock.

 

[nwilliams]

the main thing daniel defense has going for it is the super light quad rail. it's build quality, although very nice, is not on par with RRA, which cost less.

RRA makes a very nice AR and I considered going with RRA when I was looking to buy a higher quality AR than the one I had. In the end I decided that was going to go with either LMT, Colt or DD and in the end DD seemed like it offered the best bang of the buck. My decision based on the M4 comparison chart and it just seemed that the DD M4XV offered as much as LMT or Colt and for less money, it also seemed that there was mostly positive reviews on DD AR's.

 

[Maverick223]

...you'd prefer this over the FN SCAR?

Yep, and it is cheaper to boot (though I prefer it either way). Of course I am also the guy that greatly prefers that crazy Bushmaster Bullpup to any other .223Rem/5.56NATO carbine available...not many folks agree with me about that either.

I will say this about the XCR stock, it may not be 8-way adjustable, but it does lock up way more solidly than a SCAR stock.

Yep, I have one of those on my Saiga-12 and would have no qualms using it for a foot bridge (even if it was oriented such that it put pressure on the locking mechanism)...wouldn't try that with the ACR or the SCAR.

 

[ny32182]

I think the XCR is the best base design in the business. I wish there were just a couple tweaks they would make. Then I wish they would licence it for production by a company with more capacity and better business sense, but unfortunately I'm sure that will never happen.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I think the XCR is the best base design in the business.

Mostly agree. The receiver and bolt/carrier design are both excellent.

Then I wish they would licence it for production by a company with more capacity and better business sense, but unfortunately I'm sure that will never happen.

The XCR is very competitive in terms of features, and is a bit less than the SCAR and a lot less than the ACR. I wish it was still $1299 or whatever RA originally said it would be sold at. Remember, it was originally supposed to be a LESS expensive rifle than their M96! Anyway, the biggest thing keeping me from buying an XCR is just not knowing for certain that the manufacturer will be in business, AND still offering parts and service for the rifle, 10 or 20 years from now. With FN there is no worry.

 

[ny32182]

I don't have any worries about RA going out of business. They've been "going out of business next week" on the internet since I started following their products almost 10 years ago now, and they are selling way more XCRs than they ever did M96s. I was introduced to RA by a buddy who had an M96, another rifle I really liked. I've owned a VEPR K and an XCR, and both have been fine rifles.... so basically, I've never met an RA product I didn't like.

If you are worried you can buy all the spare XCR parts you want right now. Granted, M96 parts are not free-flowing these days, so it is indeed a reasonable precaution in my estimation.

I don't think you can say the same about the SCAR... are any parts available at all?

Besides, how many rifles that are NOT used by many major militaries (that is, almost any rifles other than the AR and AK) have really been in production with great parts availability for the last 20+ years? Very few. Now that the SCAR has been rejected I seriously doubt it will be in production with freely available parts 20 years from now. That wouldn't keep me from buying one though.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Problems with the XCR is that the charging handle is on the wrong side. I wish it was ambi, like the SCAR and ACR. And they need to make the 1:7 twist standard on their 5.56mm rifles. No serious fighting carbine has a 1:9.

 

[BushyGuy]

I prefer the ACR over the SCAR cuz i am a Bushmaster nut and ACR is cheaper and improved then SCAR. I dont care much for FN their prices are staggering.