Possible Executive Order ...

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BrocLuno wrote:
Needs a little tuning and tweaking,...

It needs a lot more than some tuning and tweaking.

In my opinion, the author needs to start again with a clean sheet of paper.

An executive order is a written instruction from the President to the Executive Branch agencies under his control telling them to do something. In the case of the travel ban, the instruction was to deny entry to people from certain countries. In the case of this draft, I couldn't find anything in the text where the proposed order instructs ANY Executive Branch agency to do anything. All it does is put Federal and State courts - courts outside the scope of the President's authority - "on notice" (whatever that means) and then tries to tell them what standards they are supposed to use in formualting their rulings.

If such an order were presented to the President and he were to sign it, it is my opinion that it would not require a Federal District court to rule on it's Constitutionality. Since the draft order is instructing courts in the Judicial Branch to do something which the President, as head of the Executive Branch (but not the Judicial Branch) has no authority to order, it would simply be treated as the legal nullity that it is and everyone would ignore it.
 
I'm no legal genius but the suggestion contains the following:

(e) “Militia Purposes” shall mean training, practice and preparedness which could improve the ability of a citizen to act,and to be armed in case of a need to act, as a current or future member of a local, State or National organization commanded by government officials and responsive to a physical threat. Appropriate organizations include those commanded by an elected county or city Sheriff; those commanded by the Governor of a State through officers of that State’s Defense Force as authorized by Title 30, Section 109 of the United States Code, or through officers of that State’s National Guard;and organizations commanded by the President through officers of the Active or Reserve components of U.S. Armed Forces.

If this implies ownership of such weapons and magazines is tied to training and supervision by the suggested agencies, it would be a horrible mistake. Would it mandate training? Would it mandate that states provide such and the conditions of how you keep the gun?

We've tried to break the militia bonding to gun rights. Does this suggestion instantiate it?

So do I have this incorrect in my thinking? Folks thought Heller was the golden age and it had traps in it. I don't see this one.
 
Since it touches close to home for me, I will add that in the drafter's haste to create the draft, Section 4 which purports to define "Militia Rifles", completely omits any reference to the M1 Carbine which would leave something on the order of seven million rifles subject to being banned.
 
GEM wrote:
I'm no legal genius but...

...but you are literate and you do have a functioning brain.

If this implies ownership of such weapons and magazines is tied to training and supervision by the suggested agencies, it would be a horrible mistake. Would it mandate training?

And

We've tried to break the militia bonding to gun rights. Does this suggestion instantiate it?

I think you hit the nail on the head - twice!
 
The attorney from Virginia that has cooked up this notion doesn't understand the nature of EO/EA. As pointed out already, an EO or EA ONLY directs how federal agencies are to carry out a particular operation and would do NOTHING wrt the rulings of the judiciary.

IOW, dead wrong wishful thinking.
 
If such an order were presented to the President and he were to sign it, it is my opinion that it would not require a Federal District court to rule on it's Constitutionality. Since the draft order is instructing courts in the Judicial Branch to do something which the President, as head of the Executive Branch (but not the Judicial Branch) has no authority to order, it would simply be treated as the legal nullity that it is and everyone would ignore it.

Exactly. From a legal standpoint, this thing is a joke. Besides that, Trump wouldn't sign it. He has competent lawyers on his staff that would advise him not to.
 
Another problem the magazine capacity designation. Why even put it on there? There are commercially available 60 round mags for ARs now. That work.
 
All it does is put Federal and State courts - courts outside the scope of the President's authority - "on notice" (whatever that means) and then tries to tell them what standards they are supposed to use in formualting their rulings.

If such an order were presented to the President and he were to sign it, it is my opinion that it would not require a Federal District court to rule on it's Constitutionality. Since the draft order is instructing courts in the Judicial Branch to do something which the President, as head of the Executive Branch (but not the Judicial Branch) has no authority to order, it would simply be treated as the legal nullity that it is and everyone would ignore it.

I disagree. The EO puts the state and federal courts "on notice" that they need to obey the Constitution AND the prior Supreme Court ruling on Heller.

As a parent, I don't have the authority to boss other parent's children around, but I AM within my authority to tell them to obey their own parents. This EO is like that.

It's like a cop in Maryland telling citizens of Texas to obey the laws of Texas and putting them on notice regarding a specific law. The directive has no enforcement power, but it is not outside their authority (it is no abuse of power to say it.)
 
As for militia training there is an existing mechanism - the US Army will train candidates for schools presented by militia organizations. However, they aren't responsible for the pay or benefits - the militia is. All standards of conduct and fitness apply.

Not to many volunteer do to it that way. On an opposite tack, plenty of gangs send members who have clean records as do other organizations whose mission statements turn out to be inimical to the interests of the US. The previous administration tended to classify their actions as "work place violence."

Once a candidate graduates from the course they return to their militia unit - there have been a few. I suspect there are more foreign nationals here getting training for the benefit of their gov't than American citizens doing it on their own nickel. Since there is a risk of injury, militia units aren't known for extensive healthcare support in the long term, YMMV.

As for the training weapons are supplied, once again, after graduation you are on your militia unit's nickel. And that means buying your own M16 - which isn't illegal, just expensive. All it takes is a Stamp and money, therefore an EO/EA is unecessary.

Have I not seen any comments on the MD courts decision being taken up for appeal? Seems there's a lot more to do with this decision in that regard than some ill worded Obama era workaround trying to outflank law. We seem to have a lot of interest in perpetuating what was never a good course of action. EO/EA's aren't good administration, don't make law, and are dependent on the laws as passed by Congress. It seems to go to the mentality of those who want to make the President into some newer version of an all powerful ruler who can defy our Constitutional processes and can pen whatever they like. We just finished up eight years of that in a limited way, do we need to make it even worse for the next Democratic Administration (and there will be one - historical election cycling) ?

We need to pass Law, not pen wishes. Wrong perspective entirely.
 
I disagree. The EO puts the state and federal courts "on notice" that they need to obey the Constitution AND the prior Supreme Court ruling on Heller.
No. The concept of "judicial notice" has nothing to do with the executive branch telling the judicial branch how to arrive at a given conclusion in a case (that would violate the separation of powers). "Judicial notice" means that a court, at the appellate level, can consider a well-known fact without the need for introduced evidence of that fact being part of the record of the case. For example, in Miller v. U.S., the Supreme Court could not take "judicial notice" that a sawed-off shotgun was part of the ordinary equipment of the military. No evidence of that had been previously introduced at the trial level.
 
No. The concept of "judicial notice" has nothing to do with the executive branch telling the judicial branch how to arrive at a given conclusion in a case (that would violate the separation of powers). "Judicial notice" means that a court, at the appellate level, can consider a well-known fact without the need for introduced evidence of that fact being part of the record of the case.

You may be wrongly assuming that it is "judicial notice" that is intended or that the intent is directive (must be obeyed) rather than persuasive (should be considered).

If it is a violation of separation of powers for the executive branch to include the judicial branch in an executive order, then why is it not a violation of separation of powers for the judicial branch to create orders for the executive branch?

Where does the Constitution empower the judicial branch to say to the executive branch, "You must obey our orders, but you may not even tell us to take notice of things?"

It does not. There is no violation of separation of powers in the proposed EO. It is a figment of your imagination.
 
I guess the point is some folks are thinking that with enough energy, something can be brought to this Presidents attention and maybe get something done ...
 
It needs a lot more than some tuning and tweaking.

In my opinion, the author needs to start again with a clean sheet of paper.

IMO, the author needs to hand the task off to someone who actually knows what they're doing. What an atrocious piece of (whatever you want to call a citizen-proposed EO)
 
If it is a violation of separation of powers for the executive branch to include the judicial branch in an executive order, then why is it not a violation of separation of powers for the judicial branch to create orders for the executive branch?

Where does the Constitution empower the judicial branch to say to the executive branch, "You must obey our orders, but you may not even tell us to take notice of things?"

It does not. There is no violation of separation of powers in the proposed EO. It is a figment of your imagination.

I wouldn't call it a violation of the separation of powers. I'd call it an irrelevancy. Political theater. An Executive Order is a set of instructions that is binding on the members of the Executive branch of government. Is the president of Ford Motor Company wants to write an executive order that the company's employees shall build no cars that are capable of turning left, that's his call and his employees have to follow what he says. If he wants to write an executive order that says cars shall not be built which turn left, he can't expect the good folks at Chevy to do much more than raise an eyebrow and chuckle.

Similarly, if this were to be released as written, the President should expect very little from the Judicial branch beyond, at best, a polite, "Well, that's very interesting. We will take that under advisement."

To that end, though, such a thing would be far and away most effective at improving Mr. Trump's approval rating among us, the faithful. Politics is utterly full of such things and always has been. Political capital is earned vastly more by appearances and promises than by the piddling amount of actual effect produced. Make a statement or policy that won't make a difference, can't make a scrap of real change, and probalby couldn't even BE followed under any conditions, but that sounds like the music to your followers' ears,and you build your brand in the eyes of those who will re-elect you. Then, when it doesn't work, blame the other side for obstructing the will of the people and damage them at the same time. Genius really.




(You do remember the various states' "Firearms Freedom" acts which have been passed into law in some cases? That purport to say that federal firearms laws don't apply within that state? Yeah, same thing.)
 
The attorney from Virginia that has cooked up this notion doesn't understand the nature of EO/EA. As pointed out already, an EO or EA ONLY directs how federal agencies are to carry out a particular operation and would do NOTHING wrt the rulings of the judiciary.

IOW, dead wrong wishful thinking.
Correct. It's not even an Executive Order:
The President of the United States manages the operations of the Executive branch of Government through Executive orders.....

You may be wrongly assuming that it is "judicial notice" that is intended or that the intent is directive (must be obeyed) rather than persuasive (should be considered).....

First, "judicial notice" has an established meaning, viz.:
....the authority of a judge to accept as facts certain matters which are of common knowledge from sources which guarantee accuracy or are a matter of official record, without the need for evidence establishing the fact. Examples of matters given judicial notice are public and court records, tides, times of sunset and sunrise, government rainfall and temperature records, known historic events or the fact that ice melts in the sun.
Note that it's up to a judge to decide whether to accept a fact as true as a matter of judicial notice or to require the party claiming the fact is true to present evidence on the matter.

Second, it's necessary to understand how law, and the courts, work.

Courts decide cases, i. e., matters in which a dispute or controversy within the proper purview of the court is brought by the parties to the dispute or controversy to the court for resolution by the court. The process by which this is done is highly formalized.

The facts of the matters in dispute must be decided upon. To the extent that there is a dispute regarding those facts there is a fact finding process (a trial or hearing) during which the parties advance their respective position concerning what the facts are and present evidence to support those positions.

The law, including the Constitution, any applicable statutes, and decisions of courts in other, similar cases, provide the framework the court uses to then decide the outcome of the dispute. The parties will present to the court their respective views of what the applicable law is and how it should be applied by the court to the facts so as to give the party the result he wants. Each party supports his arguments with reference to the law and to prior court decision.

A party to a dispute regarding the application of a law regulating the use or possession of an AR-15 could of course present this so called executive order to the court to support his arguments. But lacking any statutory or precedential foundation it would be easily ignored by a court.

In short, this "executive order" is more a matter of political theater.

....If it is a violation of separation of powers for the executive branch to include the judicial branch in an executive order, then why is it not a violation of separation of powers for the judicial branch to create orders for the executive branch?

Where does the Constitution empower the judicial branch to say to the executive branch, "You must obey our orders, but you may not even tell us to take notice of things?".....
To answer this, let's first look at the Constitution (Article III, Section 1 & 2):
Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....​

Section 2.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;..​

Judicial power, is:
Authority, both constitutional and legal, given to the courts and its judges (1) to preside over and render judgment on court-worthy cases; (2) to enforce or void statutes and laws when scope or constitutionality are questioned (3) to interpret statutes and laws when disputes arise....

In other words, issuing enforceable orders is inherent in the exercise of judicial powers by a court.
 
Ugh. Executive orders are orders to the executive branch. Not the judicial branch and not states.
 
....Courts decide cases, i. e., matters in which a dispute or controversy within the proper purview of the court is brought by the parties to the dispute or controversy to the court for resolution by the court. The process by which this is done is highly formalized.

The facts of the matters in dispute must be decided upon. To the extent that there is a dispute regarding those facts there is a fact finding process (a trial or hearing) during which the parties advance their respective position concerning what the facts are and present evidence to support those positions.

The law, including the Constitution, any applicable statutes, and decisions of courts in other, similar cases, provide the framework the court uses to then decide the outcome of the dispute. The parties will present to the court their respective views of what the applicable law is and how it should be applied by the court to the facts so as to give the party the result he wants. Each party supports his arguments with reference to the law and to prior court decision.

A party to a dispute regarding the application of a law regulating the use or possession of an AR-15 could of course present this so called executive order to the court to support his arguments. But lacking any statutory or precedential foundation it would be easily ignored by a court.

In short, this "executive order" is more a matter of political theater....

It occurred to me that I should expand on this a bit.

A court, in ruling on a matter must be able state how and why it reached its decision. The court must be able to state how and why, based on accepted legal principles, it reached its decision -- including on what authorities it relied, why those authorities applied and warranted consideration. Courts do this because (1) a court needs to justify its decisions; and (2) decisions of courts get second guessed by appellate courts, and a court stating an erroneous or inappropriate basis for a decision can be challenged by an aggrieved party, and reversed by a higher court, on that ground.

So if a judge in a case were to base his ruling in part on the "executive order", the party adversely affected could successfully appeal. The so called "executive order" (1) is not really an executive order; (2) could not in any case be controlling for a court; (3) has no statutory or precedential foundation; (4) is nothing more than the wishes of the President; and (5) therefore would be an improper basis for a ruling in a case.
 
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