Pournelle on TSA

[Abe]

Jerry Pournelle must be on the TSA "special treatment" list. I'm sure it's not profiling. He had another experience with them this past weekend. He originally posted something about the TSA on Sunday that he later removed with this comment:

I have been told in no uncertain terms that I should withdraw my remarks about the TSA. I have done so. It is probably not a good idea to record one's views of those honorable people.

There's more here and later in the day he re-posted some comments here.

He makes a bunch of great, though sad, remarks. Such as this:

If Americans will continue to put up with the TSA we will continue to put up with anything; it is a test, and we are failing. We will shortly be fit only to be Imperial, for we will be unable to conceive of self government and the needs of a genuine republic.

and this:

The fact of the matter is that the procedures on September 10, 2001, were nearly sufficient to prevent what happened: the taking over of airplanes and the use of them as cruise missiles to destroy specific secondary targets. If the goal is to prevent THAT we do not need a multitude of New Offices and swarms of Officers to harrass the people and eat out their substance. What we need is to prevent the potential kamikaze pilot from getting into the cockpit of the airplane. That requires strong doors, and a change in the rules of engagement: even if they are cutting the throats of your passengers and passenger service crew members, do not surrender control of the airplane to anyone, and admit no one into the cockpit; and secondly, tell the passengers they must defend themselves.

But that encourages VIGILANTISM! And vigilantism is the worst possible thing. Self government must never extend to the notion of self defense. If there is no Air Marshal or other designated Professional Law Enforcement Officer with The Proper Credentials aboard the airplane, then of course you should meekly submit to the terrorist, as you must meekly submit to the honorable Officers of the TSA who protect you.

and finally this:

So. Honor the TSA, which consists of people who need the work, and think they are doing a good job of protecting us. Intentions are far more important than the actual result, which is to make us fit to be Imperial Subjects rather than self-reliant Citizens of a free Republic.

Sad but true. We are all being trained.

- Abe

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

His remarks seem pretty insightful.

What was his "experience" with TSA this weekend, and why did it cause him to remove his comments?

 

[Sindawe]

I have been told in no uncertain terms that I should withdraw my remarks about the TSA. I have done so. It is probably not a good idea to record one's views of those honorable people. However, I cannot resist saying this much:

I have to wonder just WHO it was that told Mr. Pournelle that he should withdraw his remarks about the TSA, Hmmm????

I'd give voice to MY feeling on the TSA, but then I would have to have a long visit behind the woodshed with Art's Granma.

 

[Abe]

I don't know the details. All that he re-posted regarding Sunday was what is described here. It really struck me as odd that he would have taken down his original comments after "being told in no uncertain terms" to do so.

Awhile ago he posted some other comments about the TSA here followed by some interesting comments from some of his readers here. You have to kind of fish for his comments woven into the email he posts. His site isn't the greatest in terms of presentation however IMHO it more than makes up for this with its content. I've been reading Jerry Pournelle since I was a wee lad (in BYTE magazine.) He's great and I really appreciate his insight.

- Abe

 

[cpileri]

just to clarify

Which of these werehis original remarks? the ones he was told to remove?
If they are out there, i would like to read them!
C-

 

[Abe]

The closest thing I know of to his original post is here. Earlier today I checked the web via google and couldn't find the original post nor was it cached by google. He took them off the server sometime after he posted them this morning.

I'd like to read his original comments as well. Based upon what he has up there now they must have been really good (or bad in the eyes of whomever told him to remove them.) We can't have mere serfs pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.

- Abe

 

[beerslurpy]

And the sad thing is that I tell people about what a useless scam the TSA inspections are and they just pretend like they didnt hear me.

Why the hell did I have to be born into lousy era?

The depressing thing is that judging from history, things are only going to get worse (when our masters realize how much harder they can squeeze), and then they will get a lot worse (when the empire crumbles under the weight of its own rot and the barbarians charge in) and slowly better after hitting rock bottom (there will eventually be nothing left to pillage).

I guess I could hope that at some point the american people will just say "this is plain intolerable, we need change" but realistically I think people have become way too feebleminded and complacent to take any action, even simple stuff like political activism against obvious tyranny. It has been so long since anyone has had to do something to survive vs doing somethign because they wanted to. People just lack that sense of urgency that hardship produces in someone. Call it character or whatever you want, but I think some of you know what I am talking about.

 

[fjolnirsson]

People just lack that sense of urgency that hardship produces in someone. Call it character or whatever you want, but I think some of you know what I am talking about.

Yep.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Couple months back...

I had to deal with the TSA folks to get my mom (she's 89) on a plane.

To be honest, I had more trouble with a ticket-counter gal who didn't want to give me a gate pass. I think the idea that I might tell her where to put the ticket sank in before I could demand a supervisor.

The TSA folks were polite, if only slightly less confused than I was. Getting a wheelchair bound passenger and an "escort" at the same time seems to be unusual, at least in the sense that I had to open a "tape" a couple times to give us access to areas they wanted us to go through, not to mention being asked to give somebody my gate pass three or four minutes after another of their people had taken it.

They got a little itchy about a screwdriver on a keychain, too.... Sears used to sell or give away a flat steel disk about the size of a half-dollar with several different sizes of screwdriver "bits" sticking out if it. I've not seen one for years, but I've had mine for thirty or forty years.... They didn't notice the spark plug feeler gauge on the same keychain - I haven't changed a spark plug in thirty+ years, so I have no idea why it's still there. They also ignored a nasty little Radio Shack penlight that makes a dandy Kubotan.

In any case it's all a "feel good" that's gotten way out of hand. :banghead:

If you want to do it Israeli style, fine, although I think I'd never bother to fly again. Otherwise, arm the passengers - it'll work better than the silly screening they're doing now.

Locks keep honest people honest. They don't bother the criminals....

 

[Abe]

People just lack that sense of urgency that hardship produces in someone. Call it character or whatever you want, but I think some of you know what I am talking about.

Double yep.

As long as the Super Bowls keep rolling and the Starbucks keeps flowing (our modern form of bread and circuses), the government will continue all of its training courses in the interest of making us all good and productive subjects, err I mean citiizens. If all of this isn't the old boil the frog scenario I don't know what is. Two questions: 1) How hot's the water right now? and 2) Will the frog figure it out before it's too late and make the leap?

- Abe

 

[Nazirite]

TSA seems to like going through my checked bags. I get home from a flight and find a TSA note in my upright stating that my bag had been searched. The last time I flew they cut the lock off and put another one on that didn’t match my key. I had to find a TSA agent and get them to cut the new lock off. :banghead: I guess the fan I carry in my luggage looks really scary under the scanner.

 

[garyk/nm]

OK, I'll float the turd in the punchbowl....when is it time to use the 2nd for that which it was intended? Will there be a 2-minute warning? Or will we keep going merrily on our way to complete loss of rights, one baby-step at a time?
The people have no power or say in the running of the gooberment. Whatever they want, they will do.

I, for one, think that we are past time to act. Too bad, you lose.

 

[Werewolf]

OK, I'll float the turd in the punchbowl....when is it time to use the 2nd for that which it was intended?

That time came and went around 1968 or so.

...will we keep going merrily on our way to complete loss of rights, one baby-step at a time?

See - you do understand - really - you get it. So why did you bother with the first part of your question.

The people have no power or say in the running of the gooberment.

Sure they do - the people have all the power - it's called a vote. Unfortunately most of the people are quite content to either not vote, vote their wallets (they've figured out they can steal from the richer voters) or to vote like their masters tell them too. The rest are too few to make any difference at the ballot box.

Read the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire. IMO the USA is where the Romans were in and around the 2nd or 3rd century AD.

 

[Sindawe]

Read the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire. IMO the USA is where the Romans were in and around the 2nd or 3rd century AD.

Gosh, that was quick. Rome lastad as a Republic from what, 509 BCE to 60 BCE, and as an Empire from 60 BCE to around 400 CE? (sorry if the dates are little off, Roman history is not one of my fields of study). We've been around for about 229 years (1776, not 1788 when the Constitution was ratified).

TSA is why is refuse to fly anymore. I have a short fuse for self important fools, and I know that some TSA goon would pull that dren with me, end up crippled and missing some teeth, and I'd end up jail.

 

[roo_ster]

Sindawe wrote:

Gosh, that was quick. Rome lastad as a Republic from what, 509 BCE to 60 BCE, and as an Empire from 60 BCE to around 400 CE? (sorry if the dates are little off, Roman history is not one of my fields of study). We've been around for about 229 years (1776, not 1788 when the Constitution was ratified).

Events come on more thick & furious than they used to, to include destabilizing events and influences. Thank the printing press, telephony, & other modes of communication that allow information to disseminate more quickly.

 

[garyk/nm]

Werewolf,
OK, I'm a new guy, so I wouldn't expect you to know my feelings. The first 2 questions were rhetorical, the 3rd was a statement of the obvious.

As for the voting thing? I'm sorry, but I believe you are mistaken. With the choices which we are given, we really have no choice. When was the last time we had an election where we weren't faced with voting for the lesser of two evils? Until this 2 party system is done away with, it will continue to be more of the same. Sad, but right there for all to see.

And yes, I do vote.

 

[cpileri]

ya beat me to it

i agree, the communication speed we have today serves tro speed up societal evolution and explains why the roman empire lasted longer than we seem like we will.

My question is what made the roman politicians lack the sense to save their sinking ship? too stupid? no history to repeat? lack of foresight? lack of desire? greed and complacence? lead ions in the water?
OK, Cicero wasn't perfect (he wanted to be captain of the sinking ship BADLY) but he ticked them off enough to get murdered. Was there another warnign voice for the romans? or any other great civilizations?

What would have saved them?
A new source of wealth? return of personal and entrepreneurial freedom? concentrating the wealth in the hands of the very few and plunging the rest of us into the dark ages to see who rises out of the muck as the next renaissance superpower?

I dunno. I need a better historian to help me out.

And, whatever the answer was to save the roman empire...
Will that save us?

C-

 

[Standing Wolf]

If Americans will continue to put up with the TSA we will continue to put up with anything; it is a test, and we are failing.

Sad to say, I think he's right.

 

[Werewolf]

As for the voting thing? I'm sorry, but I believe you are mistaken. With the choices which we are given, we really have no choice. When was the last time we had an election where we weren't faced with voting for the lesser of two evils? Until this 2 party system is done away with, it will continue to be more of the same. Sad, but right there for all to see.

You make some good points on the face of it. BUT there are the primaries in which in my experience there are way more than just 2 choices. And if that doesn't do it then there's nothing that keeps a registered member of a political party from actively participating in that parties inner workings.

[Werewolf jumps up on a soap box and starts to speek - the more perceptive among you notice a maniacal glint in his beady red eyes]

AND therein lies the rub my friend. Most folks don't care enough to do that. THUS not only do we get fewer choices at election time we get the choices that we deserve based on our own complacency and/or inaction. I don't really see that changing - ever. The USA as a free nation of individuals is doomed.

[notice the flecks of foam at the edge of Werewolf's mouth]

We will become the ultimate nanny state where the government intrudes on every aspect of our lives even to the point of invading our very bodies and implanting electronic devices or genetically reengineering us to fit what ever physical mode it needs at the time.

[the tone turns angry - crazy rant begins]

This doom may be here in the next 50 years or the next 150 years but it's coming. Mark my words. IT IS COMING!

DOOM I SAY! DOOM!

[Werewolf steps down off of soap box - stares at the crowd with wild eyes and stalks off into the gloomy fog]

 

[Otherguy Overby]

It's the townies

To me, just about the biggest difference in perception comes from where people live in the US.

Big city dwellers think all these laws, rules and restrictiions make sense. It's just another thing they have to do to get through the day. They don't want to be faced with a situation Nanny can't fix. Oh my god, someone might have a gun...

Rural people see much less need for the very same laws, rules and restrictions often because the very same laws & etc. don't make sense in the country. Also, the perception of "government" protection is different where it may be 1/2 hour or more away is very different for rurals, too.

Since it follows that there will be no end to new laws, rules and restrictions, who's going to quit bending over first?

What will be the media and government response?

Is the TSA trying to keep people from "fly-over country" off the planes?

 

[garyk/nm]

Werewolf...down, boy.....good dog, have a biscuit.

OK, I'll concede that you make some very good points. I don't, however, believe that it is a question of caring. Some of us folks in the working class just don't have the time to get involved in election matters, between working multiple jobs, taking care of kids and trying to eat and sleep on a regular basis. I do care, I just don't know what else to do.

Walkies?

 

[Penforhire]

I dunno about you guys but when I need to travel I really need to get there. I don't have the luxury time to reject the TSA and walk there. Or even to drive there. I can drive for short trips (say an 8 hour drive) but not for anything longer. So yeah, they've got me by the short-hairs. I will assist whatever political effort I can to change things but the TSA controls whether or not I'm going there.

 

[glockman]

It is time to do something-Anybody interested?

I think it really is possible to do something. Consider the jackbooted thugs are federal thugs, and under federal law they can sued for violating your civil rights. "This is insane" can get you arrested according to tsa regs. Those regs violate your first amendment rights. If anyone else is interested I think it would be possible to put together a scenario that would get most of those regs trashed and restore some of our freedoms. Anybody interested? If so there would be a great deal of homework to accomplish first. I don't intend to go off half cocked. Feel free to email me at Jarrod13@peoplepc or this forum. I'm not fit to wear Jim Marchs boots but that doesn't mean I cant emulate him a little.

 

[larry_minn]

Yep if you have to go any distance you have to deal with them. It is the main thing I dislike about traveling.