Powder Cop vs RCBS Lockout Die?

[mallc]

I'm a Blue guy setting up my first LNL-AP. I will use some sort of powder check although have not selected one yet.

Might someone explain the how the RCBS Lock Die and the Hornady Powder Cop systems work? What are their limitations? Are their other brands that I should look at?

Thanks,
Scott

 

[uf-engineer]

I'm using the powder cop. It seem to work just fine. It is a plunger type checker. You set the o-ring to the right spot on the plunger and monitor it for consistency.
If confused, go to hornady's website. I think they have a picture and instructions there.

 

[jbrown13]

I have both dies. I wanted to check them both out and see which I liked best. So far, the only one I've been able to get adjusted properly is The Hornady. I guess I'm dense, but I haven't been able to make the RCBS work, although I've only tried once. The directions for the RCBS are difficult for me to follow, and I spent a career in Mechanical Engineering. I may try again, but for now I'm using the Hornady and am quite satisfied with it.

 

[HandGunGeezer]

I have both also but use only the RCBS Lockout die with handgun loads. Once you get the die adjusted the first time, you got one of those ah ha moments and from that point on it becomes very easy. What I like about the lockout die is if something goes wrong that moves your attention away for a second, and you accidently dump a little too much powder, or no powder, suddenly the press locks up and tells you for sure something is wrong. I have played around with the lock out die and if I vary the powder charge more then a couple of tenths of a grain, it locks the press. (You can still lower your shell plate and remove the over\under filled case). I can increse my loading rate a lot and not have to worry about keeping a look out on the powder check die with the little white o-ring. I have found that in order to use the lock out die with rifle cases, I had to turn down the small mandrell that comes with the die to a much smaller size in order to keep it from bumping the case mouth and locking up. It is a great design and has worked every time for me.

 

[jbrown13]

HandGunGeezer:

I agree with what you said and would love to use the RCBS die because it is more idiot proof than the Hornady. Do you have any suggestions re adjusting it so I can also have an "Ah-Ha" moment?

Thanks,
Jeff (Geezer in training -only 64yrs, 11 mos, and 7 days old.)

 

[Roccobro]

I have the Powder cop die. I'm figuring a way to hook up a bright red LED to flash when an under/over situation occurs. Something that will definitely grab your attention when it goes off.

If you don't normally paying attention to powder levels in a case, you prolly won't pay attention to the height of the plunger and O-ring. The O-ring is just much easier to see than peering down in a case.

I'm not switching over to a lockout die because I'm hoping to integrate a low powder and low primer alarm into the same circuit.

Justin

 

[Walkalong]

I played with a homemade powder level checking die, but quit fooling with it and just eyeball the powder level.

The O-ring is just much easier to see than peering down in a case.

I can't disagree, but I found I like to look in there anyway, so why do both.

 

[jbrown13]

I played with a homemade powder level checking die, but quit fooling with it and just eyeball the powder level.



I can't disagree, but I found I like to look in there anyway, so why do both.

Walkalong, I only use the Powder Cop die for tall cases like 38 Special, etc. Too difficult to see down into those tall cases with the press in the way. With 9mm I use the "look in the case" method too.

 

[Walkalong]

I have a Fenix E1 LED flashlight in a hole I drilled in my LNL. It shines down into the cases. I want to see every single charge I seat a bullet over. We all have our own way.

 

[Walkalong]

I had the hole for the flashlight drilled straight down on my old Projector. I thought it would work better at an angle, but I was wrong. If I was to do it over, I would drill it straight down again.

 

[Joemyxplyx]

I just eyeball the powder level.

I've been down this road.

I'm using 3.9gr of ZIP for a cowboy load. This barely makes a dent in a .357 case. Too easy for me to miss a double load peering in there. I've never double charged, but I have made 2 squib loads. I really needed some sort of powder check before I hurt myself.

The Dillon looked like the most fool-proof powder check out there. The Hornady powder check would be too easy for me to overlook. While the RCBS Lock-Out die costs at $45 costs almost as much as the Dillon.

I saw some picts on THR of an adaptation of a Dillon powder check to the LnL. It looked good to me so I did it. The only difficulty was grinding a grove down the side of the press with a Dremel tool. I replaced the washer on the end of the actuating arm with a bigger one - #10 x 1 1/4" - so the LnL ram would lift the actuating arm. Bright Ford red touch up paint covers up the grove in the press so the Dillon powder check looks right at home on the LnL.

Eyeballs work just fine for some, the o-ring on a rod or the lock-out others, but I'm happy I went with the Dillon.

 

[jbrown13]

I've been down this road.

I'm using 3.9gr of ZIP for a cowboy load. This barely makes a dent in a .357 case. Too easy for me to miss a double load peering in there. I've never double charged, but I have made 2 squib loads. I really needed some sort of powder check before I hurt myself.

The Dillon looked like the most fool-proof powder check out there. The Hornady powder check would be too easy for me to overlook. While the RCBS Lock-Out die costs at $45 costs almost as much as the Dillon.

I saw some picts on THR of an adaptation of a Dillon powder check to the LnL. It looked good to me so I did it. The only difficulty was grinding a grove down the side of the press with a Dremel tool. I replaced the washer on the end of the actuating arm with a bigger one - #10 x 1 1/4" - so the LnL ram would lift the actuating arm. Bright Ford red touch up paint covers up the grove in the press so the Dillon powder check looks right at home on the LnL.

Eyeballs work just fine for some, the o-ring on a rod or the lock-out others, but I'm happy I went with the Dillon.

Joe, sounds like a neat adaptation. IMO the less user input required the better. Can you post pictures of your mod?

 

[Walkalong]

I've been down this road.

I'm using 3.9gr of ZIP for a cowboy load. This barely makes a dent in a .357 case. Too easy for me to miss a double load peering in there. I've never double charged,

I agree, 3.9 Grs of Zip in a .357 case is difficult to see. A double charge looks a little bit like a single charge. One of the reasons I don't use Zip. One reason.

I'm not knocking Zip. It is capable of excellent accuracy in very light .45 ACP loads. I just don't care for it, and the tiny, by volume, charges are one reason.

 

[Joemyxplyx]

Joe, sounds like a neat adaptation. IMO the less user input required the better. Can you post pictures of your mod?

I don't have pictures. But I just did what the estimable Jenrob did. Here is the link to Jenrob's most excellent pictures.

The washer I used at the bottom of the actuator rod was a #10 x 1 1/4 fender washer with some blue loctite to hold the adjustment.

BTW, I don't think I could have got the powder check in place without using the LnL bushings. I dropped the powder check straight down and used channel locks to turn the LnL bushing to lock it in place. Things get tight between the powder measure PTX setup and the seater die.

 

[Joemyxplyx]

Walkalong said

I'm not knocking Zip. It is capable of excellent accuracy in very light .45 ACP loads. I just don't care for it, and the tiny, by volume, charges are one reason.

Yeah, ZIP is tiny in a .357 case, or most others for that matter. It's hard to tell if the case has ZIP in it or is just dirty. I think a 357 case has room for a quadruple load of ZIP with room to spare.

I use it because it is so versatile. I can load .380, 38 Special, 9mm, 357, 44 Special and 45ACP with it. Not the most powerful loads, but good light to medium loads.

I think of ZIP as a cleaner burning, better metering version of Bullseye. But I have been thinking of changing my cowboy loads to Trail Boss just so I can fill the cases better. Plus, I've heard Trail Boss smells good.

 

[Walkalong]

We kind of veered OT a bit. Maybe it will get back on track.

 

[pinkymingeo]

I have two lock-out dies. One for 38/357, the other for 10mm and larger. The die comes with two tips but they don't switch over easily, and it's much easier and more accurate just to use one for small cases and one for large. I wouldn't load without them anymore. No need to monitor them at all. A squib or serious overload will stop the press immediately. They won't detect small errors but the LnL powder measure is pretty much foolproof anyway. The lock-out is there primarily to prevent gross operator error. The powder cop never appealed to me because you have to watch it all the time. When turning out lots of ammo in a little time, I have other things to concentrate on.

 

[mongoose33]

I have pretty much the same view as Pinkymingeo. I wanted to include some powder checking system to my LNL in addition to eyeballing it, and the powder cop struck me as simply pretty much the same thing as eyeballing it. And I would have to make sure I look at it every time. That makes it much more vulnerable to operator error, to distractions. A few months back I had a couple of squibs, which simply tells me that the old mark-I eyeball, by itself, isn't foolproof.

I ended up buying the RCBS Lockout die. Very impressed by it. Like Pinky, I'll probably get multiple ones eventually, but so far I've used it with both .45 and 9mm, and to great effect. I'm still eyeballing as I insert the bullet, but having the extra advantage of the lockout die appeals to me very much.

To me, there's no contest. Lockout die wins.

BTW: If you get the lockout die, you might try something like this: I took a couple of small corks and cut them to specific lengths and stuck them into a couple of cartridge cases (no primers). One was "correct," i.e., i defined it as the proper powder load. The other was too long, and thus emulated too much powder in the case. And, of course, I had one w/ no cork, representing the squib load.

I used them to set up and learn how to use the lockout die. Works like a charm, and no muss, no fuss.

 

[Joemyxplyx]

I ended up buying the RCBS Lockout die. Very impressed by it. Like Pinky, I'll probably get multiple ones eventually

Wow, I didn't know you needed multiple RCBS Lockout dies. This makes me feel even better about the Dillon powder check.

It comes with a medium sensor rod - about .30 cal - as well as a thin, approx .20 cal, rod. There's no need having 2 powder checks. Caliber change, for me from pistol to rifle, involves pulling one rod out and inserting another. Rod calibration is a 1 minute job.

Two lockout dies cost $90 while the Dillon cost $65. Now I feel like I made the economical choice instead of the most expensive one.

 

[mongoose33]

Wow, I didn't know you needed multiple RCBS Lockout dies.

You don't. I'll probably end up getting another simply to reduce the time to adjust the one to the other spec.

And if you think Dillon is the cheap choice because of lockout dies, you should look at the rest of the cost.

 

[mallc]

Cost Comparison

And if you think Dillon is the cheap choice because of lockout dies, you should look at the rest of the cost.

Part of this project is a line-by-line cost, function, and feature comparison of Dillon 650xl versus the Hornady LNL-AP Ex-Ject. I'm building a spreadsheet to help determine which machine should be replicated in our loading room. Eventually I'll post the cost of equivalently equipted machines, equivalent caliber changeover costs, rounds per hour, and maintenance requirements.

My Dillon has the standard bells and whistles and I'm asking the High Road for help making the right first time decisions about setting the LNL-AP. I have no interest in fueling color wars, I just want to be sure we make the most cost effective choice. So far...its not as straight forward a comparison as some report.

I very much look forward to your assistance with the project.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[pinkymingeo]

I'd be surprised if the costs are significantly different except for the free bullet offer, which is a substantial benefit. Loading rates are about the same, too. So are quality and factory support. I bought the LnL because it has 60sec primer size changes, 60sec caliber changes, and a better powder measure. Some guys find those advantages are outweighed by Dillon's reputation. Whatever, they're both great presses.

 

[Roccobro]

Changeovers are much cheaper on the LNL. That was my sticking point.

But this topic is for another thread than this one...

Justin

 

[mallc]

Changeover cost

I make it a $22 difference. Do you agree?

Scott

 

[Walkalong]

With the Dillon, they want you to buy a new measure and everything for the toolhead. Expensive, but changeovers are probably real fast. Not that big a deal, unless you are swapping out a lot.

With the LNL, the powder measure stays put, the dies swap out in a few seconds, the shell plate in under a minute. That's fast too.

Both machines have to swap out primer assemblies, if they are being used.

Looks like a wash as far as time, and the cost could be calculated a dozen ways, so it's up to the individual how much a Dillon conversion costs. A wash there as well IMHO.

I like the ergonomics of the LNL. That is the difference to me. My right hand works the handle, on the right side, and my left hand feeds bullets and brass, on the left side. Very easy and smooth.