Powder deviation help please.
- Thread starter NC-Mike
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Even in the new pic, they look fine. Yes, they show more pressure than the factory load, but not excessive. Your factory primer may have a harder cup, who knows. Maybe softer too. That is only one reason we say you can't judge pressure by looking at primers. By the time it is obvious in primers, you are at the top or most likely over max. If you severely flattened a primer in .38 Spl or .45 ACP, you would be 2 times plus over max for that cartridge because they operate at low pressures.
That look in the new pic is not what I described when I talked about fully flattened primers showing distinct over pressure signs.
If your disc throws 5.4 Grs and it shoots well and you like the feel, that is what I would go with.
The Bushmaster
Member
All of the photos of the primers look normal. In fact yours aren't as flattened as mine are. And I am under maximum powder charge in most of my reloads. I sometimes wonder if factory powders or primers (I know the powders are) are just enough different from reloading components to make the difference in primer flattening.
If you understand how and why primers flatten, you wouldn't worry about them. When your firing pin hits the primer it pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber before it sets it off. Then the powder ignites and expands the case against the chamber wall. This pressure, in turn, pushes the primer out just a bit. As the pressure falls and the case starts to spring back to normal the case is slamed against the breach face reseating the primer and thus flattening it.
Over pressure signs seen on primers are pierced primers, cratered primers and soot around the edge of the primer. Flattened primers are not a sign of over pressure.
I do wish you'd get a name brand powder that has known published data...
If you understand how and why primers flatten, you wouldn't worry about them. When your firing pin hits the primer it pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber before it sets it off. Then the powder ignites and expands the case against the chamber wall. This pressure, in turn, pushes the primer out just a bit. As the pressure falls and the case starts to spring back to normal the case is slamed against the breach face reseating the primer and thus flattening it.
Over pressure signs seen on primers are pierced primers, cratered primers and soot around the edge of the primer. Flattened primers are not a sign of over pressure.
I do wish you'd get a name brand powder that has known published data...
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rfwobbly
Member
Fun
"Buddy if I did that, I would never have any fun.
"
I think what our friend was trying to warn you about is that the 9mm is no cartridge to play around with. It's very small case volume means that extremely small powder changes can be the difference between a good shooting cartridge, and blowing up your gun and/or hand.
"I do wish you'd get a name brand powder that has known published data..."
Let me second that.
"Buddy if I did that, I would never have any fun.
"I think what our friend was trying to warn you about is that the 9mm is no cartridge to play around with. It's very small case volume means that extremely small powder changes can be the difference between a good shooting cartridge, and blowing up your gun and/or hand.
"I do wish you'd get a name brand powder that has known published data..."
Let me second that.
Well thanks for both the information and the concerns gentlemen. I truly do appreciate both.
Wideners has been selling that particular powder for a while. In fact there was a post about the powder on THR back in august so plenty of people have been using this powder.
Wideners gave three loads they had worked up for 9mm, 40, and 45. I want to load 9mm and 45 and nothing else with this powder so I figured there would be no problem and I really haven't had a problem yet.
I'm going to the range in a little bit to try those lighter loads. I have a feeling I will have found a good safe load that I can run off in a very safe efficient way on the equipment I own.
All in all I am very happy about the progress I have made so far and what I have learned from this process. I honestly never thought I would even reload 9mm but when I got my tumbler and cleaned up the 45 ACP, 38 Special and 357 Magnum brass I had on hand and compared that amount of brass to the thousands of 9mm brass I had collected, I knew I would be reloading 9mm as well.
Wideners has been selling that particular powder for a while. In fact there was a post about the powder on THR back in august so plenty of people have been using this powder.
Wideners gave three loads they had worked up for 9mm, 40, and 45. I want to load 9mm and 45 and nothing else with this powder so I figured there would be no problem and I really haven't had a problem yet.
I'm going to the range in a little bit to try those lighter loads. I have a feeling I will have found a good safe load that I can run off in a very safe efficient way on the equipment I own.
All in all I am very happy about the progress I have made so far and what I have learned from this process. I honestly never thought I would even reload 9mm but when I got my tumbler and cleaned up the 45 ACP, 38 Special and 357 Magnum brass I had on hand and compared that amount of brass to the thousands of 9mm brass I had collected, I knew I would be reloading 9mm as well.
NC-Mike,
You seem to have a good outlook, willing to learn, admit your troubles and are keeping a positive attitude. I saw you had a squib, and this concerns me a little as it could have also been just as easilly been an overcharge. As I mentioned in my initial post, a bulky moderate speed powder like Unique is a very good powder to use in 9mm, beginner or otherwise. Even at "normal" charges, it nearly fills the case, and will greatly spill over if even a little more powder is added. It's also very forgiving, gives great performance over a wide range of velocities, and is proven over a span of 100 years.
Many ball propellants are very dense, and can result in a 2.5-3x charge in a 9mm case. My best piece of advice that I have stuck to is never seat a bullet until you visually check the case with good lighting for powder level 100%. I have to say I am pleased that you did not start with the absolute fastest powder to start. I have seen more posts from beginners with KB's and other problems that always seem to have "Titegroup" or "Clays" mentioned. IMO, these are terrible powders to start with in 9mm, as they give very little leeway from min to max charges, and if setback does happen while learning how to set up dies properly, pressure spikes are sharp without the somewhat more forgiving nature of slower powders. Another benefit of a larger charge of slower propellant is it can also act as a physical stop for the bullet should it be pushed back.
Keep at it, be safe, and have fun.
You seem to have a good outlook, willing to learn, admit your troubles and are keeping a positive attitude. I saw you had a squib, and this concerns me a little as it could have also been just as easilly been an overcharge. As I mentioned in my initial post, a bulky moderate speed powder like Unique is a very good powder to use in 9mm, beginner or otherwise. Even at "normal" charges, it nearly fills the case, and will greatly spill over if even a little more powder is added. It's also very forgiving, gives great performance over a wide range of velocities, and is proven over a span of 100 years.
Many ball propellants are very dense, and can result in a 2.5-3x charge in a 9mm case. My best piece of advice that I have stuck to is never seat a bullet until you visually check the case with good lighting for powder level 100%. I have to say I am pleased that you did not start with the absolute fastest powder to start. I have seen more posts from beginners with KB's and other problems that always seem to have "Titegroup" or "Clays" mentioned. IMO, these are terrible powders to start with in 9mm, as they give very little leeway from min to max charges, and if setback does happen while learning how to set up dies properly, pressure spikes are sharp without the somewhat more forgiving nature of slower powders. Another benefit of a larger charge of slower propellant is it can also act as a physical stop for the bullet should it be pushed back.
Keep at it, be safe, and have fun.
+1
How are you comparing the two? are you using a chrono or are you going by feel?
Sorry Mate but as a newbie and without using a chrono, this is like a shot in the dark. Some of your posts kinda scare me a little for your safety.
Experience happens not overnight so avoid the urge to "spice things up" as you said earlier.
Some of us have seen both good and bad when it comes to Handloading and over the last 20 years or so of doing it myself, I never had a problem because I was taught to stick to the general rules of reloading. Above all, safety first. Take no short cuts.
No man can tell another what to do but i would not risk my eyes, hand, face, life or the persons standing next to me at the range if I wasn't 100% sure my loads are right. There is a responsible to reckon with. I would really get to intimately know the basics of Handloading and load developement before you try to cut corners. There will be plenty of time to "spice things up" later on down the freeway.
Cheers, Mate.
LGB
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As I said, I appreciate the sentiments and everything is just fine. I bought a commercial pistol powder from a very reputable dealer who has been selling that same product for a considerable time and followed their load data.
No worries mate, it's all good.
And I'm all about safety. I rebuild lethal service rated industrial machinery in some very hazardous locations. I know safety and what precise tolerances and exacting production standards are...
Mike,
I don't think the powder or the reputable dealer is the problem in question, Mate. And we are not rebuilding lethal service rated industrial machinery here, either.
I have never done what you do (rebuild lethal service rated industrial machinery)so if I started, I would take your advise, since you have obviously more experience, before I venture out too far on my own.
Just my .02 cents worth, Mate.
Keep us posted on your progress and good luck and good shooting.
Cheers...
LGB
RustyFN
Member
Mike if you don't mind me asking what did you pay for the surplus powder. Powder is the cheapest part of reloading and I have never found much of a price difference between surplus and new powder to make surplus worth while.
Rusty
Rusty
Jim Watson
Member
I see nothing wrong with using the Widener's powder with normal loading procedures and safeguards. To me this means:
First: Not screwing up your loading procedures with such novelties as priming a case after the powder was already in it, losing enough powder to stick a bullet, and firing the heavier (maximum published) load with no buildup after finding the lighter load screwed up.
Second: Those primers do not look good to me, contrary to some other posts. Such "coining" of breechface toolmarks is a sign of high pressure, even if the cups are not as flat as a pancake.
If 5.4 grains will function the gun, quit messing around with the load. I looked at the so-called "data" on the Wideners jug and it does not match any cannister powder. That is not necessarily bad, it is not even unusual, wholesale bulk powders used by commercial loaders don't have to meet retail powder specs as long as the commercial loader has the correct specifications or the equipment to determine them. The problem is that the loads are different from caliber to caliber in a progression unlike powders I have data for. Tells me that it is either an oddball powder or that Wideners might not have the equipment and expertise to "work up" loads for an unknown powder.
Y'all be careful, now, you hear?
First: Not screwing up your loading procedures with such novelties as priming a case after the powder was already in it, losing enough powder to stick a bullet, and firing the heavier (maximum published) load with no buildup after finding the lighter load screwed up.
Second: Those primers do not look good to me, contrary to some other posts. Such "coining" of breechface toolmarks is a sign of high pressure, even if the cups are not as flat as a pancake.
If 5.4 grains will function the gun, quit messing around with the load. I looked at the so-called "data" on the Wideners jug and it does not match any cannister powder. That is not necessarily bad, it is not even unusual, wholesale bulk powders used by commercial loaders don't have to meet retail powder specs as long as the commercial loader has the correct specifications or the equipment to determine them. The problem is that the loads are different from caliber to caliber in a progression unlike powders I have data for. Tells me that it is either an oddball powder or that Wideners might not have the equipment and expertise to "work up" loads for an unknown powder.
Y'all be careful, now, you hear?
From my earlier post.
I guess Jim and I agree on that.
I say, Jim must have better eyes that me. I can't see the "coining" of breechface toolmarks, but if it is doing that, it is definitely some pretty good pressure involved.
And I also agree, do be careful now, ya hear.
The Bushmaster
Member
I see breechface marks on the primers, but not on the case head...
Well I shot the other 15 rounds loaded at 5.4 grains and I couldn't tell any difference in recoil between them and factory rounds and that probably means nothing...
I staggered 3 reloads with 4 factory rounds in the mag and they all felt the same and shot to the same POI and again, that probably don't mean much.
The primers still concern me. This batch is not as flattened out as the first but they still do not look anywhere near a fired factory round. Here is a pic of some of the fired reloads and one fired factory round.
And OK, I do realize and acknowledge I'm doing this backwards. The load that wideners worked up is I don't know what. I can go lower. 5.2 grains or even 5 grains. I want to see primers that look like factory fired rounds before I am happy.
I staggered 3 reloads with 4 factory rounds in the mag and they all felt the same and shot to the same POI and again, that probably don't mean much.
The primers still concern me. This batch is not as flattened out as the first but they still do not look anywhere near a fired factory round. Here is a pic of some of the fired reloads and one fired factory round.
And OK, I do realize and acknowledge I'm doing this backwards. The load that wideners worked up is I don't know what. I can go lower. 5.2 grains or even 5 grains. I want to see primers that look like factory fired rounds before I am happy.
Jim Watson
Member
Picture is not well enough focused to see tool marks, but the corners and indents are much more rounded than the 5.7 batch. I am more comfortable with this load.
What brand of primers are you using? I once scared myself with flattened Federal primers in a load that gave no pressure indications with Winchesters.
Recoil "feel" and POI on target are not a reliable indication of chamber pressure or velocity. Hardly any handloader has a pressure gauge setup and relatively few have chronographs. The only thing you have to go by is function of the gun and very minor changes in the appearance of brass and primer, which are not very reliable themselves.
What brand of primers are you using? I once scared myself with flattened Federal primers in a load that gave no pressure indications with Winchesters.
Recoil "feel" and POI on target are not a reliable indication of chamber pressure or velocity. Hardly any handloader has a pressure gauge setup and relatively few have chronographs. The only thing you have to go by is function of the gun and very minor changes in the appearance of brass and primer, which are not very reliable themselves.
Looks like you have found a load, although you were working in reverse.
When I finally sprung for a chrono ($100), I figured out what Jim mentioned, you cannot tell velocity or pressure from recoil etc. I hot rod very, very few loads. I like to stay "comfy" with my reloads.
When I finally sprung for a chrono ($100), I figured out what Jim mentioned, you cannot tell velocity or pressure from recoil etc. I hot rod very, very few loads. I like to stay "comfy" with my reloads.
Using Federal Primers.
Here's a link to a higher res pic
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/Primercomparison004.jpg
They are better than the last batch but still have some breechface imprinting and flattening.
Here's a link to a higher res pic
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Collection/Primercomparison004.jpg
They are better than the last batch but still have some breechface imprinting and flattening.
The Bushmaster
Member
NC-Mike...They look normal!!! Unless they are pierced, cratered or leaking soot from the outer edge they are just fine!! They are supposed to be flat...
When you see breechface printing on the brass head part of the case...Then worry. It is normal to see breechface printing on the primer...After a few years of shooting that pistol the breechface will smooth up...
When you see breechface printing on the brass head part of the case...Then worry. It is normal to see breechface printing on the primer...After a few years of shooting that pistol the breechface will smooth up...
Jim Watson
Member
With the famously soft Federal primers, that is probably not a bad load. As I said, I saw fired Federal primers like that with a handbook load that gives no adverse signs with Winchester or CCI. I still wouldn't push the top load of a no-name powder but you are probably ok where you are at 5.4.
Well thank you gentlemen.
With my limited experience looking at fired hand-loads using Federal primers it is the way they looked compared to fired factory loads gave me some cause for concern. The fired factory rounds look like they never even touch the breech-face. No imprinting or coining of them at all.
That said I did make up fifteen loads using a 5gr charge. This loads did feel a little lighter than the factory loads and that probably does mean something. The pistol still cycled fine with this load and the primers do look "better"
I thing I realize now. I will need a chrono...
Here's the primers from this batch. As far as reading primers go, there was definite differences between the 5.7, 5.4 and 5 grain batches. Some of these primers still have some coining, just not as prominent as the other loads so I would be inclined to agree with both of you that the 5.4 grain batch was just fine. Hell, the 5.7 grain batch was probably OK as well cause there was no sign of the rounds sticking but I'm taking a guess at that. These 5gr loads were definitely a light round. If these primers are still imprinting at this charge, there is no getting around it. Why is it the factory rounds don't do the same thing?
Didn't mean for that to come off as arrogant. I just wanted to convey the fact that I have a good background on which to draw from.
I realize I have a lot to learn about reloading but I want to learn and am doing so little by little. I have all the things I need to start reloading 38/357, 45 and .223 right now but I won't I will be touching that stuff till I get this 9mm round right and have made and fired a few hundred of them. Then I'll go to the 38, 45, 357 and 223 in that order.
Jim Watson
Member
Because Remington doesn't use Federal primers. There IS a difference, brand to brand.
Probably an effect from REloads in used brass, too. Hmm. Something to test this winter, I have some Federal ammo that has been up the feed ramp about as many times as I care to send it. I can experiment with that.
I just paid a visit to the Bass Pro Shop and bought some Remington, CCI and Winchester SP primers. I'm going to load up ten 5.4 grain rounds with each primer and see exactly how they compare to the "soft" Federal primers.
I'll probably get that done Friday as tomorrow I'll be "celebrating" the holiday...
This will be interesting. At least to me.
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